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  1. #21
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon67 View Post
    ...but Jen agreed with NoahFence's assertion that "...it's not his or anyone's place to stop people from sinning."

    "Anyone" includes government, does it not?
    Sure, and it's not the government's place to stop people from sinning, which is a religious concept. It's totally the government's place to stop people from committing crimes. Crime and sin are not the same thing at all.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
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  2. #22
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Sure, and it's not the government's place to stop people from sinning, which is a religious concept. It's totally the government's place to stop people from committing crimes.
    So tell me again why polygamy is a crime?

  3. #23
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon67 View Post
    So tell me again why polygamy is a crime?
    I'm guessing because of the Mormons or something. Doesn't matter- enacting or overturning laws of behavior is a legal matter, not a religious matter. Mixing the two is dangerous, IMO.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
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  4. #24
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'm guessing because of the Mormons or something. Doesn't matter- enacting or overturning laws of behavior is a legal matter, not a religious matter. Mixing the two is dangerous, IMO.
    The truth is that while "crime" and "sin" are distinct concepts, there is considerable overlap between what is a sin and what is a crime. Most criminal acts are also considered sinful by Judeo-Christian standards. The reason there are laws against prostitution and polygamy is because these acts violate Judeo-Christian morals, and the morality was written into law in some bygone era in which such laws were not just tolerated, but expected.

    One may try to assert a utilitarian basis for criminal law (murder is a crime because it impairs the function of the society and the state) or a rights basis for criminal law (murder is a crime because it violates the victim's right to not be murdered), but to do so ignores the fact that our criminal code is heavily grounded in English common law, which (among other things) has the Bible as its basis (murder is a crime because God said not to do it).

    In one sense, it's absolutely true that you cannot legislate morality...but in another sense, legislated morality is all that the law ever was, or will be.

    And while it may in fact be dangerous to mix law and religion, I submit to you that secularism is itself a religion, and its principles have been mixed with the law for some time now. The secular urge to pass laws for the good of all mankind is at least as dangerous as anything the Inquisition ever coughed up.

    So pick your poison.

  5. #25
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    How just like an ENTP!

    Seriously, if y'all want to continue the topic, we should probably bump it all to another thread so as not to distract from Brendan's vent.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #26
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Still, Brendan, it sounds to me like you have a chip on your shoulder against this person. Is it worth all of this conflict to the point of physical violence? Why let this experience shape you like that?
    I know that the reason I have a chip on my shoulder in relation to him is not because I dislike him personally, but because he is almost like a sent-from-above embodiment of everything I have to fear, dislike, fight against in my world, and if I let this symbol get away with treating me like im nothing, I'll never be able to fight the real thing.

    I won't punch him unless he initiates a physical conflict, I was just angry, but I'm not going to sit there and take it.
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  7. #27
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    As serious as you are, Brendan, for some crazy reason Twisted Sister started playing in my head... Anyway, do what you feel you need to, I just hope nothing to stupid erupts.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

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    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

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  8. #28
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    I know that the reason I have a chip on my shoulder in relation to him is not because I dislike him personally, but because he is almost like a sent-from-above embodiment of everything I have to fear, dislike, fight against in my world, and if I let this symbol get away with treating me like im nothing, I'll never be able to fight the real thing.

    I won't punch him unless he initiates a physical conflict, I was just angry, but I'm not going to sit there and take it.
    All right. I don't know what's right for you in this situation, and I didn't want to see you cause unnecessary trouble for you and for Sean or go down a path that will make things harder later for you; but I do very much understand the part that I bolded up above in your comment.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #29
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon67 View Post
    The truth is that while "crime" and "sin" are distinct concepts, there is considerable overlap between what is a sin and what is a crime. Most criminal acts are also considered sinful by Judeo-Christian standards. The reason there are laws against prostitution and polygamy is because these acts violate Judeo-Christian morals, and the morality was written into law in some bygone era in which such laws were not just tolerated, but expected.

    One may try to assert a utilitarian basis for criminal law (murder is a crime because it impairs the function of the society and the state) or a rights basis for criminal law (murder is a crime because it violates the victim's right to not be murdered), but to do so ignores the fact that our criminal code is heavily grounded in English common law, which (among other things) has the Bible as its basis (murder is a crime because God said not to do it).

    In one sense, it's absolutely true that you cannot legislate morality...but in another sense, legislated morality is all that the law ever was, or will be.

    And while it may in fact be dangerous to mix law and religion, I submit to you that secularism is itself a religion, and its principles have been mixed with the law for some time now. The secular urge to pass laws for the good of all mankind is at least as dangerous as anything the Inquisition ever coughed up.

    So pick your poison.
    I agree.

    In Simple Christianity, CS Lewis proposed that all human societies are fundamentally alike. Ideas like burying your dead, treating your neighbor like you want to be treated, starting families, and freedom are universal. Humans are much more alike than not. "Treat your neighbor as you want to be treated" is a simple truth, and most societies and religions sing that chorus. I think many laws and morals are just an embodiment of universal human values. It's like a guide for human behavior that says "don't kill or hurt each other," which most humans know is the right way to behave. For example I don't think there's a society that eats their own babies and values murdering each other.

  10. #30
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    Thank you! This is exactly what I was trying to get across. I don't care if someone doesn't like what I do, I don't care if they don't like me, but that doesn't make it okay to treat me like a second class citizen.
    Yeah, Brendan, a few words for some perspective from someone with many friends with conservative christian views (I'm more liberal with my Christian views; I've had many a heated discussion about "biblical facts" that they assume are universal interpretations... although I'm straight, so i can't relate to the depth that you do on this issue).

    One thing to keep in mind is how some of these people were raised, like Cafe said. And not just that they were taught this--that, for some people, this "biblical fact" (that homosexual acts are a sin) is one part of a very tall and skinny castle they have built for themselves to live above. They look down from it and are fearful for all the action and commotion that they see going on around them, and are very weary of the fact that should one part of the castle's weight-bearing pillars be torn apart, the whole thing will fall.

    What I'm trying to say is this: for many conservative Christians, the issue with homosexuality is not that they interpret it as a sin. The issue for them is that any non-literal interpretation of the bible means that the entire belief system that they live their lives by would crumble.

    The battle you wage in discussion with many people (although, admittedly, not all. Just most) like Sean is not a battle over homosexuality as you interpret it to be. In reality, it's a self-preserving all-out war from these literal biblical interpretors... you're dissecting the specific issue of homosexuality, they're fighting with every bit that they have over the truth of their faith. And, by extension, themselves.

    Worst of all, most don't know this. It's taken me years of debate to figure this one out. Whenever you have a discussion with one of them, if they are calm enough to go deep enough to the "why's" behind their beliefs, I've found the common link that they're either a) convinced that the entire bible is literal, and therefore have no fear proclaiming every literal interpretation that they have, or b) they're sweating over the fact that just possibly the bible can be not literally correct. Which, for a Christian like me, is just plain obvious. The metaphors and bigger picture are glaringly obvious to me. But to them, it's all or nothing.

    This is what they live by. This is what they live for. God. And they do this through God's word. So while you're debating homosexuality, they're fighting for God.

    This perspective has got me way further than any specific issue with homosexuality ever has in discussions with firmly-entrenched conservative Christians.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

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