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  1. #21
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Last edited by JivinJeffJones; 09-12-2007 at 01:52 PM.

  2. #22
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    What I'm saying is that we cannot ultimately separate rational thought from language-- even though we're capable of thinking wordlessly, we're still thinking wordlessly in a mind constrained (and, in other ways, set free) by language. There's still the one-degree-of-separation between the ineffable and our thought processes, and it's because of our language. It is still ineffable, but the rigor that language imposes on the brain prevents us from fully experiencing the ineffable.

    Do you remember how emotions seemed so much more raw before you had the linguistic skills to symbolize them? Now that you can say "I feel angry," anger has less potency.
    You're right about that, rational though can not be seperated from language, though rational though is first given rise to by intuitive hunches, feelings, or ideas that are not yet rational thoughts. So indeed rational thought does end up getting symbolized into something, a language of a sort, even if its not a conventional one.

    Yet again we have to be broad with the definition of language, as it can be anything that can be symbolized and it does not have to be something that is compatible with objective linguistics.

    But again, only the conventional definition of rational thought requires language. Intuitive hunches in themselves can be rational in a way that they follow a meaningful pattern, yet recognition of this pattern requires language.

    Hence meaningful ideas are possible without language, though identification of those ideas does need symbolism.

  3. #23
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    You're right about that, rational though can not be seperated from language, though rational though is first given rise to by intuitive hunches, feelings, or ideas that are not yet rational thoughts. So indeed rational thought does end up getting symbolized into something, a language of a sort, even if its not a conventional one.

    Yet again we have to be broad with the definition of language, as it can be anything that can be symbolized and it does not have to be something that is compatible with objective linguistics.
    That's a broader definition than I sense (or intuit?) the OP intended.

    For our species, language acquisition was a trade-off, and it was worth it by far (IMO), but we did lose some of our capacity for fully experiencing. Language becomes a buffer zone between a person and their experiences.

  4. #24
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    What I'm saying is that we cannot ultimately separate rational thought from language-- even though we're capable of thinking wordlessly, we're still thinking wordlessly in a mind constrained (and, in other ways, set free) by language. There's still the one-degree-of-separation between the ineffable and our thought processes, and it's because of our language. It is still ineffable, but the rigor that language imposes on the brain prevents us from fully experiencing the ineffable.

    Do you remember how emotions seemed so much more raw before you had the linguistic skills to symbolize them? Now that you can say "I feel angry," anger has less potency.
    Hmmmm doesn't language in turn give us the ability to explore abstract ideas better? For only by limiting the scope of what we focus on can we puzzle out the details...

  5. #25
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Hmmmm doesn't language in turn give us the ability to explore abstract ideas better? For only by limiting the scope of what we focus on can we puzzle out the details...
    Absolutely. I'm not saying language isn't worth the many new levels of thinking it offers.

  6. #26
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    The joys of childhood... I really miss it too.

    So there can be rational thoughts without words? I'm not sure if anybody else have done this, but I sometimes talk to my ummm altered ego? in my head. It's a way of clearing things up by talking to myself. I really wanted to track these conversations but whenever I tried to do that it just doesn't work well. Typing it out, way too slow. The process of typing means I have to repeat everything that is said to myself in order to type. Even speaking out loud and recording doesn't work. Because then I have to repeat what the voice in my head said. It interrupts the flow of the conversation. Also you can convey thoughts about an idea so much quicker in your head without words. It's almost like flashing isolated images with continously running emotion as commetary. The whole incident is over within a second or two. Something you just can't record in words. But that has always been more about experiencing something rather than like thinking to me. Hmmmm...
    I think I kinda know what you're talking about. That's exactly what gets me called "Off the wall."

    When I'm having a conversation with another person, my brain is still having it's own running conversation with itself. Sometimes I forget that the other person is not privy to this, and when I begin to speak again, I say things that have no obvious relationship to what we were talking about.

    I can almost always grab the mental thread (if that makes any sense) and backtrack, explaining how I got from point A to point E, but by then the other person is thinking if I'm lucky and :crazy: if I'm unlucky.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #27
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    That's a broader definition than I sense (or intuit?) the OP intended.

    For our species, language acquisition was a trade-off, and it was worth it by far (IMO), but we did lose some of our capacity for fully experiencing. Language becomes a buffer zone between a person and their experiences.

    It is true that language becomes fundamental to our thought, yet again when we deal with raw ideas, we seem to be working with entities that are devoid of symbolism. But when we go on to reflect on it and present it in an objective fashion, even to ourselves, we then utilize symbolism. Everybody's thought is deeply influenced by language, Js more so than Ps. Yet we should note that ideas in themselves is what actually gave rise to symbols and new ideas can only be influenced by them, yet symbols in themselves could not be immanent within our minds because they first derived from an external source.

  8. #28
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    It is true that language becomes fundamental to our thought, yet again when we deal with raw ideas, we seem to be working with entities that are devoid of symbolism. But when we go on to reflect on it and present it in an objective fashion, even to ourselves, we then utilize symbolism. Everybody's thought is deeply influenced by language, Js more so than Ps. Yet we should note that ideas in themselves is what actually gave rise to symbols and new ideas can only be influenced by them, yet symbols in themselves could not be immanent within our minds because they first derived from an external source.
    I don't see how you can separate it like that. Either we have a linguistic brain or not. I'm not disputing that we can think wordlessly-- I've acknowledged that we do in each of my posts in this thread. But thinking wordlessly in a language-capable brain is probably very different from thinking wordlessly in a wordless brain, IMO.

  9. #29
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    It is true that language becomes fundamental to our thought, yet again when we deal with raw ideas, we seem to be working with entities that are devoid of symbolism. But when we go on to reflect on it and present it in an objective fashion, even to ourselves, we then utilize symbolism. Everybody's thought is deeply influenced by language, Js more so than Ps. Yet we should note that ideas in themselves is what actually gave rise to symbols and new ideas can only be influenced by them, yet symbols in themselves could not be immanent within our minds because they first derived from an external source.
    Thoughts from some Js are no more influenced by language then Ps... it should be based on what your dominant introverted function when it comes to thinking, whether that's perceiving or judging. Question about symbols... Where do the first words orginate from if not within the mind of an individual? Therefore somewhere way back in time... the first symbol was synthesized internally.

  10. #30
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't see how you can separate it like that. Either we have a linguistic brain or not. I'm not disputing that we can think wordlessly-- I've acknowledged that we do in each of my posts in this thread. But thinking wordlessly in a language-capable brain is probably very different from thinking wordlessly in a wordless brain, IMO.

    Thinking does not require symbols, if symbols are profoundly ingrained within our psyche, they may become unconscious influences on us, but again the pure essence of an idea does not involve symbolism.

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