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Is it pointless to believe in God?

Totenkindly

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God loves us so much, that he wants the best for us. If hell is the best thing for you then he will love you enough to support your journey to it. Have you been to hell? Do you have proof that it is not the best thing for you?

It's kind of hard to have a dialog when people start with assumptions that aren't the same.

Again, one can hold a belief in God.

One can't say with certainty that "God loves us so much that he wants the best for us." That's an assumption, at core, just like you might take an algebraic equation and say, "Assume that x=3."

That's what a lot of this is.
One person says x=3.
Another says x=7.
Another might say that z = x-y.

It's nice to speculate those different things and see what patterns we can find if we start with particular assumptions.

But in the end it's all based on the assumptions.
There are no answers, only choices.
 

swordpath

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God loves us so much, that he wants the best for us. If hell is the best thing for you then he will love you enough to support your journey to it. Have you been to hell? Do you have proof that it is not the best thing for you?

I agree with you anja, if you're stating that God is misinterpreted and really is the "answer."

Who the fuck wants to go to hell?
 

Clownmaster

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I think the problem with religion in general is that there are too many beliefs out there, and so many of them claim to be the true one. Then they start splitting off into the thousands of protestant varieties of christianity versus the entirely different catholicism. not to mention muhammad basically telling people to convert to islam or be murdered, but in islam he's considered a saint and then people say the islamic god and christian god are one and the same.
the jews are still waiting for the christ and claim jesus a delusional prophet who did many great miracles.

then there are many different religions, preaching reincarnation, heaven and hell, no existence after death, among other things.

Believing that only ONE of these religions could be the absolute almighty law of the chosen creator, or creators (polytheism), and that 80%(estimate) of the population of the world doesn't believe in that ONE true religion and are sentenced to damnation is retarded in my opinion.
 

Nocapszy

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Who the fuck wants to go to hell?

*raises hand proudly*

I mean I figure if I'm enthusiastic about it here in the real world, I'll get to be like... high up in the ranks before I even get down there, and thence tortured less.

He'll see how much of a sadist I am, and the potential there is in creative punishment I'll have.

Shit, if I play my cards right, he'll let me take his damned place.




And no that's not a pun. It's so damned easy to make religion puns simply because everything revolves around it. I, and no one else is clever like that. Just clumsy.
 

placebo

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"Do we really need him/her/it and everything he/she/it has to offer?"

I think you are looking at it the wrong way. There is not a single, 'correct', objective answer to this.

What do you mean when you say "pointless"? What IS the point? To be logical?
 

Kobe

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No. It is not.

Why? Because it gives people hope in certain situations. It gives them a goal in life. It gives life a direction for some people.
But this doesn't mean God exists.
 

wildcat

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Quantum Mechanics is our most accurate description of reality so far. And it is very, very, very accurate - unimaginably accurate.

Yet Quantum Mechanics says that particles are popping into existence and out of existence, all the time, right around us, now.

Quantum Mechanics says that things appear out of nowhere all the time.

So to say that things just do not appear out of nowhere means you must overturn Quantum Mechanics first.

But in fact you say that things just do not appear out of nowhere because you intuitively see this around you.

But things that are very big, as in Relativity, or very small, as in Quantum Mechanics, are counter intuitive.

You are identical to those who, over the last 200,000 years, said the Sun goes round the Earth. After all it is entirely intuitive.
Einstein believed in God.
It is the rational thing to do.
God is the rational thing.

Einstein said God does not play dice.
If you play dice, how many alternatives do you have?
Six in the first round.
Six and thirty in the second round.

Go on. You find some interesting conclusions.
Change the number with the round.
 

Athenian200

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For some people, belief in God is what holds them together, and without that belief, they couldn't cope with life. But, this seems like a quick fix and a masking of their problems, in the same way that heroin addicts use to escape their problems.

So, for many, belief is clearly worthwhile, but for others, the absolute need to believe is representative of deeper psychological issues.

I agree with this, mostly, although I would put a less negative spin on it. I would even go so far as to say that religion offers perspectives that can give people hope, comfort, happiness, and confidence that can't be shaken because it isn't rooted in anything that can disappear, even if they aren't true. Perhaps that's the real secret to its power and pervasiveness. The benefits that can be derived from how people respond to religion (such as being cooperative, less selfish, and feeling like they have a purpose) might be the point, rather whether what it depicts is true. What the depiction evokes in people (that is, a more community-oriented, long-term focus, and more charitable mindset) because they believe it's true might well be more important than the depiction itself. Ironically, one has to accept it as truth in order to benefit from the depiction, and this is why it pressures you to do so. If you see through it, it doesn't work anymore.

Does that make sense?
 

Totenkindly

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I agree with this, mostly, although I would put a less negative spin on it. I would even go so far as to say that religion offers perspectives that can give people hope, comfort, happiness, and confidence that can't be shaken because it isn't rooted in anything that can disappear, even if they aren't true. Perhaps that's the real secret to its power and pervasiveness. The benefits that can be derived from how people respond to religion (such as being cooperative, less selfish, and feeling like they have a purpose) might be the point, rather whether what it depicts is true. What the depiction evokes in people (that is, a more community-oriented, long-term focus, and more charitable mindset) because they believe it's true might well be more important than the depiction itself. Ironically, one has to accept it as truth in order to benefit from the depiction, and this is why it pressures you to do so. If you see through it, it doesn't work anymore.

This dynamic is definitely at work in some part.

I think the hardest thing about any in-depth discussion with most religious people is this: They wholeheartedly believe in the values of their faith, even if they don't truly understand the logical (in)consistency within it or any scientific or historical (lack of) basis for it.

So if you challenge the beliefs on a logical or scientific or historical basis, this is read not as an attack on those particular aspects of their belief system (an intellectual thing) but as an attack on the values they already have experienced the benefit of and have come to identify with their religion.

Because those positive values have been so incredibly attached to the value system, rather than existing outside of it, they feel like your criticisms are (1) lies and/or (2) an attack on the values, and if you would attack those good values, you must be a bad person... and thus someone who should be ignored or even assembled against.

NTs would do well to remember this when they engage in discussion with non-NT believers in non-ambiguous faiths.

I think the problem with religion in general is that there are too many beliefs out there, and so many of them claim to be the true one. Then they start splitting off into the thousands of protestant varieties of christianity versus the entirely different catholicism. not to mention muhammad basically telling people to convert to islam or be murdered, but in islam he's considered a saint and then people say the islamic god and christian god are one and the same. the jews are still waiting for the christ and claim jesus a delusional prophet who did many great miracles.

then there are many different religions, preaching reincarnation, heaven and hell, no existence after death, among other things.

Believing that only ONE of these religions could be the absolute almighty law of the chosen creator, or creators (polytheism), and that 80% (estimate) of the population of the world doesn't believe in that ONE true religion and are sentenced to damnation is retarded in my opinion.

True. That's a problem, since none can be proven.
I think diversity of faith exists because human understanding is imperfect and incomplete.

Religious people would do well to remember that.

I was reading, though, of polls of Christianity (to pick the most obvious example) in the US over the last few years. A good half of the Christians in this country or more actually believe that other faiths have the ability to get one into heaven; they're actually into diversity, they think (like CS Lewis and others have over the years) that God has shown facets of himself through other faiths in ways that allow one to know him. Including Judaism, Islam, and other of the "enemy" faiths that some conservatives rail against.

It's the evangelical and fundamentalist communities (who are often more vocal) that have a 65% chunk or so of their own congregations that are exclusionary.
 

Kobe

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Einstein believed in God.
It is the rational thing to do.
God is the rational thing.

Einstein said God does not play dice.
If you play dice, how many alternatives do you have?
Six in the first round.
Six and thirty in the second round.

Go on. You find some interesting conclusions.
Change the number with the round.

Na-ah:
“It was, of course, a lie, what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious, then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.” - Einstein

“I am a deeply religious nonbeliever. This is a somewhat new kind of religion.’ - Einstein
 

Costrin

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Na-ah:
“It was, of course, a lie, what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious, then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.” - Einstein

“I am a deeply religious nonbeliever. This is a somewhat new kind of religion.’ - Einstein

What *insert gender of quoted poster here* said.

Plus:
Wiki link for even more clarification.
 

Nonsensical

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It's kind of hard to have a dialog when people start with assumptions that aren't the same.

Again, one can hold a belief in God.

One can't say with certainty that "God loves us so much that he wants the best for us." That's an assumption, at core, just like you might take an algebraic equation and say, "Assume that x=3."

That's what a lot of this is.
One person says x=3.
Another says x=7.
Another might say that z = x-y.

It's nice to speculate those different things and see what patterns we can find if we start with particular assumptions.

But in the end it's all based on the assumptions.
There are no answers, only choices.

I agree 100% with this, and take it even further. I mankind's understanding of the divine and unseen in 100% assumptions, and to prove either side is impossible, so one human being is logically incapable of enforcing any ideas on another, obviously..

It's all about choices, what we infer, and how we see it. For me? I am a very spiritual person and I believe in God 100%, but in no way am I saying it's a fact. I find it wrong to try to tell others how it is..it's not something that exists outside of us- it's purely an inside inference.
 

Mole

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...it's not something that exists outside of us- it's purely an inside inference.

An immanent god.

But an immanent god can't be reality tested.

So an immanent god is out of touch with reality.

Just as the thoughts of schizophrenics are out of touch with reality.

And just as the emotions of the clinically depressed are out of touch with reality.

But to be in touch is not only to be sane, but to be happy.
 

simulatedworld

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I'd say that no, it's not pointless because it helps people sleep at night. More power to them; just keep it out of my life unless I ask you to involve it.

But another related point: I don't see why so many Ns insist on increasingly vague definitions of God just so they can keep saying they're believers. If God is really purely an internal force, can we at least call it something else so that we're not confused with Bible-thumping fundamentalists who take everything in religion literally?

What if I think that God happens to be the happiness contained in this glass of red wine I'm consuming? Why, I guess then I'd be a theist--this wine makes me awfully happy.

Except not, because that definition of God has just been watered down so much from the way the common theist actually believes in him today that it can scarcely be called God at all. You start with a literal conception of God, and then you slowly chisel away more and more properties from him based on rational inquiry that you finally end up with something so different that I have a lot of trouble seeing why you guys still call him that.

Can't we all at least agree on a definition of God? Is he a conscious entity? Does he hear prayers? Does he actively manipulate worldly events? There is so much variation in ideas about what God actually is that "God" ends up being whatever the hell you want him/it to be, so much that the theist vs. atheist distinction becomes all but meaningless.

Tell ya what: I'm an atheist because I don't believe in your man in the sky who judges our moral actions and personal beliefs, because no soul or energy unique to our personality lingers after the brain dies, and because I don't think shit happens to us after death (besides rotting in the ground.)

And I shouldn't have to defend against these accusations of, "But how can you really be an atheist when you haven't disproved MY personal vague conception of God?...which happens to be that God is really just that good feeling I get when I have fulfilling experiences."

Because to most religious people, your vague inner spirituality (or whatever) is not actually God, so I take no responsibility for (or intention of) disproving it when I call myself an atheist, and I wish this distinction were more universally obvious.
 

Totenkindly

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But another related point: I don't see why so many Ns insist on increasingly vague definitions of God just so they can keep saying they're believers. If God is really purely an internal force, can we at least call it something else so that we're not confused with Bible-thumping fundamentalists who take everything in religion literally?

What else would people say during sex, then? ;)

Anyhoo, the definition of the word "god" actually is pretty well agreed on: "Whatever you think the driving force in the world is." People don't feel like they're watering down the definition, then; they're being very literal when they refer to God, even if the God they believe in seems more nebulous than YHWH, and you can't really take them as the "deviation" from the fundamentalist standard unless you are implicitly suggesting that the fundamentalist standard is the one everything should be judged by in the first place.


What if I think that God happens to be the happiness contained in this glass of red wine I'm consuming? Why, I guess then I'd be a theist--this wine makes me awfully happy.

*looks at empty bottle*

"Bastard! You consumed God! He was supposed to consume you!"

Except not, because that definition of God has just been watered down so much from the way the common theist actually believes in him today that it can scarcely be called God at all. You start with a literal conception of God, and then you slowly chisel away more and more properties from him based on rational inquiry that you finally end up with something so different that I have a lot of trouble seeing why you guys still call him that.

See above.

People are fighting over "ownership" of the word "God."
Just like Christians of all denoms are today (and, actually, for the last 2000 years) fighting over ownership of the word "Christian."


Can't we all at least agree on a definition of God? Is he a conscious entity? Does he hear prayers? Does he actively manipulate worldly events? There is so much variation in ideas about what God actually is that "God" ends up being whatever the hell you want him/it to be, so much that the theist vs. atheist distinction becomes all but meaningless.

I just tend to see it as "believer in something divine" or "non-believer in the divine" (or "believer in no divine").

And I shouldn't have to defend against these accusations of, "But how can you really be an atheist when you haven't disproved MY personal vague conception of God?...which happens to be that God is really just that good feeling I get when I have fulfilling experiences."

Although that's simply an opinion of yours (i.e., your assess of the content of other people's beliefs, you couldn't prove anything), I agree that it's bs to demand that other people disprove us or prove themselves in order to have validity. Why does anyone have to prove anything at all, short of when faith starts to get invasive into the lives of others? In general, since none of us can prove diddly, it doesn't make sense to make our own judgment the standard that others have to meet ... although somehow we have to reconcile that with the idea that our faith guides our choices and is generally what we use as a basis for life (i.e., part of the evaluation criteria).

So it seems to demand both an acceptance that we do give our own opinions more credibility and live according to them and evaluate other opinions by them, while at the same time a humility that we really can't prove anything that we believe and so it's really about our own personal faith that we share rather than impose.

I don't always agree with everything you say, but for this, I love you forever.

lol, you know how to sweep an intellectual gal off her feet. ;)
 

bbites

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Pointless? I don't think so. Anything could be considered "pointless" to one person and vital to someone else. I don't want to break into religious babble but, for me, life without Jesus is pointless. Faith is something that isn't based on logic. But I then I guess "logic" could just be a buzz word. Like I think was mentioned in another thread; we don't "know" anything. Science could be fake. Everything could be fake and somehow beyond our reasoning. Existence is the ultimate mystery. Okay sorry for the babble. Short answer to your question:

No. I do not think it is pointless to believe in God.
 
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