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  1. #21
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemons View Post
    God loves us so much, that he wants the best for us. If hell is the best thing for you then he will love you enough to support your journey to it. Have you been to hell? Do you have proof that it is not the best thing for you?
    It's kind of hard to have a dialog when people start with assumptions that aren't the same.

    Again, one can hold a belief in God.

    One can't say with certainty that "God loves us so much that he wants the best for us." That's an assumption, at core, just like you might take an algebraic equation and say, "Assume that x=3."

    That's what a lot of this is.
    One person says x=3.
    Another says x=7.
    Another might say that z = x-y.

    It's nice to speculate those different things and see what patterns we can find if we start with particular assumptions.

    But in the end it's all based on the assumptions.
    There are no answers, only choices.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #22
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemons View Post
    God loves us so much, that he wants the best for us. If hell is the best thing for you then he will love you enough to support your journey to it. Have you been to hell? Do you have proof that it is not the best thing for you?

    I agree with you anja, if you're stating that God is misinterpreted and really is the "answer."
    Who the fuck wants to go to hell?

  3. #23
    EvanTheClown (ETC) Clownmaster's Avatar
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    I think the problem with religion in general is that there are too many beliefs out there, and so many of them claim to be the true one. Then they start splitting off into the thousands of protestant varieties of christianity versus the entirely different catholicism. not to mention muhammad basically telling people to convert to islam or be murdered, but in islam he's considered a saint and then people say the islamic god and christian god are one and the same.
    the jews are still waiting for the christ and claim jesus a delusional prophet who did many great miracles.

    then there are many different religions, preaching reincarnation, heaven and hell, no existence after death, among other things.

    Believing that only ONE of these religions could be the absolute almighty law of the chosen creator, or creators (polytheism), and that 80%(estimate) of the population of the world doesn't believe in that ONE true religion and are sentenced to damnation is retarded in my opinion.

    Because you can't spell "Slaughter" without "Laughter"

  4. #24
    Senior Member Maabus1999's Avatar
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    Everyone's definition of God is different.

  5. #25
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    Who the fuck wants to go to hell?
    *raises hand proudly*

    I mean I figure if I'm enthusiastic about it here in the real world, I'll get to be like... high up in the ranks before I even get down there, and thence tortured less.

    He'll see how much of a sadist I am, and the potential there is in creative punishment I'll have.

    Shit, if I play my cards right, he'll let me take his damned place.




    And no that's not a pun. It's so damned easy to make religion puns simply because everything revolves around it. I, and no one else is clever like that. Just clumsy.
    we fukin won boys

  6. #26
    Senior Member placebo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    "Do we really need him/her/it and everything he/she/it has to offer?"
    I think you are looking at it the wrong way. There is not a single, 'correct', objective answer to this.

    What do you mean when you say "pointless"? What IS the point? To be logical?

  7. #27
    Junior Member Kobe's Avatar
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    No. It is not.

    Why? Because it gives people hope in certain situations. It gives them a goal in life. It gives life a direction for some people.
    But this doesn't mean God exists.

    "We all have time to spend or waste, and it is our decision what to do with it. But once passed, it is gone forever. "-Bruce lee

  8. #28
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Quantum Mechanics is our most accurate description of reality so far. And it is very, very, very accurate - unimaginably accurate.

    Yet Quantum Mechanics says that particles are popping into existence and out of existence, all the time, right around us, now.

    Quantum Mechanics says that things appear out of nowhere all the time.

    So to say that things just do not appear out of nowhere means you must overturn Quantum Mechanics first.

    But in fact you say that things just do not appear out of nowhere because you intuitively see this around you.

    But things that are very big, as in Relativity, or very small, as in Quantum Mechanics, are counter intuitive.

    You are identical to those who, over the last 200,000 years, said the Sun goes round the Earth. After all it is entirely intuitive.
    Einstein believed in God.
    It is the rational thing to do.
    God is the rational thing.

    Einstein said God does not play dice.
    If you play dice, how many alternatives do you have?
    Six in the first round.
    Six and thirty in the second round.

    Go on. You find some interesting conclusions.
    Change the number with the round.

  9. #29
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    For some people, belief in God is what holds them together, and without that belief, they couldn't cope with life. But, this seems like a quick fix and a masking of their problems, in the same way that heroin addicts use to escape their problems.

    So, for many, belief is clearly worthwhile, but for others, the absolute need to believe is representative of deeper psychological issues.
    I agree with this, mostly, although I would put a less negative spin on it. I would even go so far as to say that religion offers perspectives that can give people hope, comfort, happiness, and confidence that can't be shaken because it isn't rooted in anything that can disappear, even if they aren't true. Perhaps that's the real secret to its power and pervasiveness. The benefits that can be derived from how people respond to religion (such as being cooperative, less selfish, and feeling like they have a purpose) might be the point, rather whether what it depicts is true. What the depiction evokes in people (that is, a more community-oriented, long-term focus, and more charitable mindset) because they believe it's true might well be more important than the depiction itself. Ironically, one has to accept it as truth in order to benefit from the depiction, and this is why it pressures you to do so. If you see through it, it doesn't work anymore.

    Does that make sense?

  10. #30
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I agree with this, mostly, although I would put a less negative spin on it. I would even go so far as to say that religion offers perspectives that can give people hope, comfort, happiness, and confidence that can't be shaken because it isn't rooted in anything that can disappear, even if they aren't true. Perhaps that's the real secret to its power and pervasiveness. The benefits that can be derived from how people respond to religion (such as being cooperative, less selfish, and feeling like they have a purpose) might be the point, rather whether what it depicts is true. What the depiction evokes in people (that is, a more community-oriented, long-term focus, and more charitable mindset) because they believe it's true might well be more important than the depiction itself. Ironically, one has to accept it as truth in order to benefit from the depiction, and this is why it pressures you to do so. If you see through it, it doesn't work anymore.
    This dynamic is definitely at work in some part.

    I think the hardest thing about any in-depth discussion with most religious people is this: They wholeheartedly believe in the values of their faith, even if they don't truly understand the logical (in)consistency within it or any scientific or historical (lack of) basis for it.

    So if you challenge the beliefs on a logical or scientific or historical basis, this is read not as an attack on those particular aspects of their belief system (an intellectual thing) but as an attack on the values they already have experienced the benefit of and have come to identify with their religion.

    Because those positive values have been so incredibly attached to the value system, rather than existing outside of it, they feel like your criticisms are (1) lies and/or (2) an attack on the values, and if you would attack those good values, you must be a bad person... and thus someone who should be ignored or even assembled against.

    NTs would do well to remember this when they engage in discussion with non-NT believers in non-ambiguous faiths.

    Quote Originally Posted by EvanTheClown View Post
    I think the problem with religion in general is that there are too many beliefs out there, and so many of them claim to be the true one. Then they start splitting off into the thousands of protestant varieties of christianity versus the entirely different catholicism. not to mention muhammad basically telling people to convert to islam or be murdered, but in islam he's considered a saint and then people say the islamic god and christian god are one and the same. the jews are still waiting for the christ and claim jesus a delusional prophet who did many great miracles.

    then there are many different religions, preaching reincarnation, heaven and hell, no existence after death, among other things.

    Believing that only ONE of these religions could be the absolute almighty law of the chosen creator, or creators (polytheism), and that 80% (estimate) of the population of the world doesn't believe in that ONE true religion and are sentenced to damnation is retarded in my opinion.
    True. That's a problem, since none can be proven.
    I think diversity of faith exists because human understanding is imperfect and incomplete.

    Religious people would do well to remember that.

    I was reading, though, of polls of Christianity (to pick the most obvious example) in the US over the last few years. A good half of the Christians in this country or more actually believe that other faiths have the ability to get one into heaven; they're actually into diversity, they think (like CS Lewis and others have over the years) that God has shown facets of himself through other faiths in ways that allow one to know him. Including Judaism, Islam, and other of the "enemy" faiths that some conservatives rail against.

    It's the evangelical and fundamentalist communities (who are often more vocal) that have a 65% chunk or so of their own congregations that are exclusionary.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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