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  1. #41
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    SW, in your mind, how would this universe and life have arisen from the noumenal realm? ?.
    The noumenal realm by definition is a limitless homogeneous entity. The entity must be such that it entails an illusory perception of itself which manifests as the phenomenal realm or the world as we experience it. This is very similar to what Aristotle talked about when he spoke of his God as an entity that can only think about itself. Or in the case of Hegel, the absolute thought can think only about thought. In short, the phenomenal realm is is merely a manifestation of an illusory self-perception of the noumenal realm.

    In terms of human knowledge, how exactly did this happen? We cannot know as the noumenal realm is by definition outside of the scope of our knowledge. What we can know is how the phenomenal realm first began to exist, irrespectively of its tie to the noumenal. In this regard shall defer to the physicists who have provided a Big Bang account of the origin of the universe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Also, what would the existence of this noumenal realm mean for free will?.
    What impact does the existence of the noumenal realm carry upon the notion of free will? It may be urged that all that occurs in the phenomenal realm is merely an illusory self-perception of the noumenal realm. Thus, the real action occurs in the noumenal realm and what is in the phenomenal is illusory representation of such action. Since the noumenal realm is outside of time, everything that has occurred, occurrs and will occurr is imprinted in the noumenal realm. This shows that there is no free will. Negation of free will is not problematic. It merely means that all of our actions are a necessary entailment of their antecedents which is a compelling thesis. Which basically amounts to a truism of all events have a cause. This shows that not one person is genuinely responsible for their actions. However, from this it does not follow that we must release all of our prisoners and decriminalize all viscious acts that hitherto led to a criminal penalty, simply for practical reasons. E.G, we do not wish to die or to live in a chaotic society.


    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    i didnt read anything but the op but here you go

    On point one, there is a difference between knowledge and the ability to understand. Understanding comes before knowledge. The potential to understand is what I think you are talking about here. I believe this comes down to brain function and exists within the contrasts of individual mind development. Physical factors that pretain to this cabability, I believe, are created within a complex system of events beginig at the point of conception through out development.

    On point two, I would say that infants carry a strong tendency for both introversion and extroversion since on a physical level they are exaushted and overwhelmed when receiving too much external stimuli, im guessing this comes from their imature ability to process as they go. As far as the innate characteristics, this could go either way as well. At best it is certainly a mixture of capability as well as introduction. For example one may be capable of or have an understanding toward, but if the actual opportunity is never in existence within their world, certainly this knowledge would not manifest itself . This would lead the individual toward other interests which may or may not be as innate yet still comprehendable and result in the foundations for other interests and preferences to occur, as you stated with your sugar salt analogy.

    To point three, we are all just a little pocket of bacteria that exists in a coexisting but differently functioning time within a larger context that is functioning indipendantly yet slightly connected to us
    1)The ability to understand precedes knowledge for obvious reasons.
    2)Infants demonstrate a strong tendency towards both extroversion and introversion? Why is that? It seems to me that because infants do not have a rich inner life and because of this cannot easily be independent from the external world, in order to survive they must demonstrate a strong tendency towards extroversion. However, this tendency is unlikely to be so strong that it would not possible to override such a tendency. At a later point when babies acquire a certain measurement of independence from the external world they may develop a tendency for introversion and override the initial tendency towards extroversion.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  2. #42
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Could you describe what you mean by a self-perception? How is it that a thought thinks of itself?

    Also, you'll pardon me for sounding pat, but if free will is an illusion, what impetus is there for any man to take responsibility for his actions and, subsequently, the course of his own life?
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  3. #43
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Could you describe what you mean by a self-perception? How is it that a thought thinks of itself??
    The most clear-cut illustration of the problem I could give is, a thought (for Hegel) or the Will (for Schopenhauer), the substance (for Spinoza), whatever this infinite unfathomable essence is, is the only thing that exists. Thus all activity that there could be inevitably involves nothing other than this infinite substance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Also, you'll pardon me for sounding pat, but if free will is an illusion, what impetus is there for any man to take responsibility for his actions and, subsequently, the course of his own life?
    Practical purposes. We will always feel like we have to make choices, inevitably what happens in our lives is a result of what we think we chose. We will always be in a position where we think we must choose something and engage in the act. The fact that at the core our actions are merely a result of their antecedents will never be relevant to our practical endeavors. Thus, because taking resonsibility for our actions is a practical endeavor, the lack of the metaphysical free will is not relevant and therefore will not stop us from taking responsibility for our actions.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  4. #44
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    In short, the phenomenal realm is is merely a manifestation of an illusory self-perception of the noumenal realm.
    Can we stop calling them different 'realms', when what you're actually describing is the difference between {...2, 3, 4...} and {infinity}.

    was the whole point of this exercise to show that the universe arose out of infinity? I think everyone agrees there. what you or anyone is really disagreeing on is the use of accurate language. I have yet to see why the use of "separate realms" is the most accurate use of language (and no im not refereeing to lexical definition of "realm"). The use of realm brings a lot of linguistic superstition baggage with it.

    the "noumenal level of perception" versus the "phenomenal level of perception" seems much more accurate. these statements make predictions on experience more accurately than the predicted experiences of "realms". "realms" imply that these are separate existences in extension, when in reality its one entity that is being viewed with different levels of perception.

    What impact does the existence of the noumenal realm carry upon the notion of free will? It may be urged that all that occurs in the phenomenal realm is merely an illusory self-perception of the noumenal realm. Thus, the real action occurs in the noumenal realm and what is in the phenomenal is illusory representation of such action. Since the noumenal realm is outside of time, everything that has occurred, occurrs and will occurr is imprinted in the noumenal realm. This shows that there is no free will. Negation of free will is not problematic. It merely means that all of our actions are a necessary entailment of their antecedents which is a compelling thesis. Which basically amounts to a truism of all events have a cause. This shows that not one person is genuinely responsible for their actions. However, from this it does not follow that we must release all of our prisoners and decriminalize all viscious acts that hitherto led to a criminal penalty, simply for practical reasons. E.G, we do not wish to die or to live in a chaotic society.
    determinism doesn't negate our free will. To most people, free will is getting to do what you want. Any other definition is carrying linguistic superstition along with it.

    what is our will made of? our memories, abilities, experiences, desires (our "pattern" per se) etc. Therefore, our pattern, has desires. Only if our actions/thoughts were determined to be other than what our "pattern" desired, would our free will really be in jeopardy. Even though time has been determined, our will is actually followed and honored. Compare this to a libertarian view of free will and people kill their wives in one universe (irrespective of their "pattern") and in another universe dont kill (irrespective of their "pattern"). That would be a sense of time that is independent from its antecedent. Our antecedent is entirely made of "our pattern". thus, only in a world where our patterns weren't the antecedents would a true loss of freedom of will occur.





    If someone does something bad because of their upbringing (or other experiences seen outside of control), those experiences are what make up their "pattern" and the pattern should be punished as such, because the pattern did what it wanted to do: something bad.

    determinism is actually the only way we can have any semblance of actual responsibility (when contrasted with libertarian free will).

  5. #45
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    Can we stop calling them different 'realms', when what you're actually describing is the difference between {...2, 3, 4...} and {infinity}.

    was the whole point of this exercise to show that the universe arose out of infinity? I think everyone agrees there. what you or anyone is really disagreeing on is the use of accurate language. I have yet to see why the use of "separate realms" is the most accurate use of language (and no im not refereeing to lexical definition of "realm"). The use of realm brings a lot of linguistic superstition baggage with it. ).


    Yes, you may argue that they are the same, this is what Schopenhauer has argued. This is simply a double-aspect theory. The phenomenal world in essence is really the noumenal, just this essence has a different appearance from the appearance of the noumenal realm. The appearance of the noumenal realm is inaccessible we may say, thus we superimpose an appearance that is accessible. Thus, because the essence of the phenomenal world is identical to the essence of the noumenal world, they are identical.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  6. #46
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Yes, you may argue that they are the same, this is what Schopenhauer has argued. This is simply a double-aspect theory. The phenomenal world in essence is really the noumenal, just this essence has a different appearance from the appearance of the noumenal realm. The appearance of the noumenal realm is inaccessible we may say, thus we superimpose an appearance that is accessible. Thus, because the essence of the phenomenal world is identical to the essence of the noumenal world, they are identical.
    the original language used in OP = my former barrier to understanding

    thanks for clarifying

  7. #47
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Solitary Walker, how would you propose one attempts to visualize this noumenal realm and its relationship to the phenomenal? I still see no reason why this universe could not be, as Babylon Candle points out, an aberrant localized order in the infinite chaos and, hence, real and true to our experience of it. If you could describe how one ought to visualize what you propose, it would help me to better understand your stance I believe.

    I agree that the issue of infinite regress must be addressed, but I disagree strongly with the assertion that we are will-less automatons, or what could be described as the ultimate "goldfish dreaming he is a man".
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  8. #48
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Solitary Walker, how would you propose one attempts to visualize this noumenal realm and its relationship to the phenomenal? I still see no reason why this universe could not be, as Babylon Candle points out, an aberrant localized order in the infinite chaos and, hence, real and true to our experience of it. If you could describe how one ought to visualize what you propose, it would help me to better understand your stance I believe.
    Its by definition unimaginable, however, we know it exists because only the existence of such an entity shows that the world as we experience could exist. (Otherwise there is the infinite regress problem.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    I agree that the issue of infinite regress must be addressed, but I disagree strongly with the assertion that we are will-less automatons, or what could be described as the ultimate "goldfish dreaming he is a man".

    The assertion that free will exists is tantamount to a belief in magic. If you say we are free to do as we will, in effect you claim that we are not bound by the laws of nature.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  9. #49
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    The assertion that free will exists is tantamount to a belief in magic. If you say we are free to do as we will, in effect you claim that we are not bound by the laws of nature.
    I know that you're an intelligent person and, as such, should know precisely what my rebuttal will be:

    We are free to act according to our own judgment (or lack thereof) within the bounds of reality.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  10. #50
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    We are free to act according to our own judgment (or lack thereof) within the bounds of reality.

    Indeed, but this does not show that there is metaphysical free will. Or that deep down our actions are internally inspired and are not merely reactions to external stimuli.

    Free Will is defined as freedom from extrinsic influences. You may think of such influences as metaphysical or practical. Hence, metaphysical free will is freedom from the laws of nature. (For instance,a neuron fires in a certain way and is supposed to incite a certain psychological activity in your mind, yet we have the will to do differently.) This is obviously absurd.

    However, free will can also be thought of as freedom from direct, practical influences. For instance, if a man looses his job, he may be influenced to be depressed, yet he can choose instead to be resilient. This kind of belief in free will is indeed plausible.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

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