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Jesus Loves Me!

Totenkindly

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But clearly that was not what Moses, Jesus or Muhammad described all those hundreds of years ago.

Where did Moses describe hell?

When Jewish people died, they ALL descended into Sheol ("the grave"). Heaven/Hell were not ethereal distant and future concepts to them -- things very much played out in the "Now," it seems, and everyone regardless of belief went to "sleep" when they passed on. The Jews simply believed that somehow JHVH would still prove himself faithful and restore life somehow. But I am not sure they knew exactly what that entailed.

I hate religion - all religions. I spent a great deal of my life in a religion and I want NOTHING more to do with any of them.

But for a moment I felt like going with him to whatever meeting. Just so that there might be some people who would be interested in me, give me some attention, affection, and even love.

Don't laugh - I know it's so stupid.

Of course that's what attracts many people to religion - lost lonely and unhappy souls, looking for attention, to be part of a group and of course - the love of Jesus.

Just because you're lonely and he might have been exploitative (maybe) doesn't mean it's not true. :)

You'll have to go and see and play it by ear.
 

The Ü™

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lol.

The very idea of Hell is just mind boggling.

It is one of the reasons I rejected Islam.

Of course modern Christians, Jews and even some modern Muslims, will say that Hell is just a metaphore - an allegory for the suffering one faces as a result of the 'realization' that one has hurt others.

But clearly that was not what Moses, Jesus or Muhammad described all those hundreds of years ago.

That's the updated PC version.

Well there's one thing that PC-ness is right about.

On another note, if Jesus and God love everybody, wouldn't that make him a little bisexual? I think God puts these anti-gay rules on humans because he's really a homophobe hiding in the closet.
 

Sahara

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cosmicdancer

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I read that the jahannum word was an description of a real place on earth

anyway, this site might help, I looked it up earlier:

Does Judaism believe in Heaven and Hell? | AskMoses.com - Judaism, Ask a Rabbi - Live

Thanks - I also looked up the word Jahannum and found this:

Gehenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It seems the word Gehenna is: "derived from the burning garbage dump near Jerusalem"

LOL... it seems that Christian and Islamic myths of a burning fire where unbelievers are tossed for all eternity derives from a garbage dump!!!
 

Sahara

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LOL... it seems that Christian and Islamic myths of a burning fire where unbelievers are tossed for all eternity derives from a garbage dump!!!

Yes that's the one I meant, I remember first reading about it about a year ago and having a giggle at how detailed and different the idea of hell has become, rather than the bunch of "Garbage" it actually was. :D
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Where did Moses describe hell?

When Jewish people died, they ALL descended into Sheol ("the grave"). Heaven/Hell were not ethereal distant and future concepts to them -- things very much played out in the "Now," it seems, and everyone regardless of belief went to "sleep" when they passed on. The Jews simply believed that somehow JHVH would still prove himself faithful and restore life somehow. But I am not sure they knew exactly what that entailed.
From what i understand many of the original Hebrew words are interpreted to imply the more modern idea of hell when translated into King James English. I understand that traditionally the Hebrews did not believe in anything like hell. They believed in the resurrection - or at least only the Sadducee did. (Or was that the Pharisees?) I'm trying to remember now if historically there were periods that they didn't even believe in an afterlife at all. Today is a different thing altogether - after Christian theology. There are even Christian churches today who draw more heavily from the Old Testament who do not believe in an eternal hell or a location designated for suffering. They do all believe in a Judgment Day, i think.
 

darlets

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This is possible because he has mad skills.

Mad Skills but couldn't quite find the time to say slavery is bad.

"
Quotations by learned men from the 19th century:
"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America. 1,2

"There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral." Rev. Alexander Campbell
bullet "The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina

"The hope of civilization itself hangs on the defeat of Negro suffrage." A statement by a prominent 19th-century southern Presbyterian pastor, cited by Rev. Jack Rogers, moderator of the Presbyterian Church (USA).
bullet "The doom of Ham has been branded on the form and features of his African descendants. The hand of fate has united his color and destiny. Man cannot separate what God hath joined." United States Senator James Henry Hammond. 3

Quotation from the 21st century:
"If we apply sola scriptura to slavery, I'm afraid the abolitionists are on relatively weak ground. Nowhere is slavery in the Bible lambasted as an oppressive and evil institution: Vaughn Roste, United Church of Canada staff.

Overview:

The quotation by Jefferson Davis, listed above, reflected the beliefs of many Americans in the 19th century. Slavery was seen as having been "sanctioned in the Bible." They argued that:
Biblical passages recognized, controlled, and regulated the practice.
The Bible permitted owners to beat their slaves severely, even to the point of killing them. However, as long as the slave lingered longer than 24 hours before dying of the abuse, the owner was not regarded as having committed a crime, because -- after all -- the slave was his property.

Paul had every opportunity to write in one of his Epistles that human slavery -- the owning of one person as a piece of property by another -- is profoundly evil. His letter to Philemon would have been an ideal opportunity to vilify slavery. But he wrote not one word of criticism.
Jesus could have condemned the practice. He might have done so. But there is no record of him having said anything negative about the institution.

Eventually, the abolitionists gained sufficient power to eradicate slavery in most areas of the world by the end of the 19th century. Slavery was eventually recognized as an extreme evil. But this paradigm shift in understanding came at a cost. Christians wondered why the Bible was so supportive of such an immoral practice. They questioned whether the Bible was entirely reliable. Perhaps there were other practices that it accepted as normal which were profoundly evil -- like genocide, torturing prisoners, raping female prisoners of war, forcing rape victims to marry their rapists, executing religious minorities, burning some hookers alive, etc. The innocent faith that Christians had in "the Good Book" was lost -- never to be fully regained. "
 

Totenkindly

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I understand that traditionally the Hebrews did not believe in anything like hell. They believed in the resurrection - or at least only the Sadducee did. (Or was that the Pharisees?)

The Pharisees (the teachers of the law who worked very hard to be "perfect" and holy according to the Law) did believe in the resurrection. The Sadducees (which were like the Roman-approved elite priesthood) did not believe in the resurrection and questioned Jesus on it at least once...

They tried to trap him in the question of, "What happens if a woman's husband dies without giving her a son, and her brother [who was obligated to marry her by Law] fails to give her a son and then dies, and so on, until she has lost seven husbands this way -- well, whose wife is she in heaven?" [Basically, they were insinuating that the resurrection made no sense, because this woman would be married to seven men if they were all resurrected at some point.] Jesus, of course, twisted the riddle around and trapped them...

I'm trying to remember now if historically there were periods that they didn't even believe in an afterlife at all. Today is a different thing altogether - after Christian theology. There are even Christian churches today who draw more heavily from the Old Testament who do not believe in an eternal hell or a location designated for suffering. They do all believe in a Judgment Day, i think.

And much of that is a hodge-podge of ideas found in John's Revelation, superimposed over Old Testament theology. It is a little nutty, how it all fits together.

Even Satan evolved quite clearly, from the OT to the NT and then throughout the Middle Ages. Most people do not seem to realize that our current-day ideas of Satan, heaven, and hell are actually not explicitly described in the Bible in consistent terms the same way they speak of them today.

"There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral." Rev. Alexander Campbell
bullet "The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina

In regards to these two preachers: Does anyone want to play Hangman? Here, I will offer the first word: _ _ _ _ - _ _ _.

Spoiler Clues:
The first word means "not smart."
The second word is a synonym for "donkey."


People were so ignorant.

The Bible permitted owners to beat their slaves severely, even to the point of killing them. However, as long as the slave lingered longer than 24 hours before dying of the abuse, the owner was not regarded as having committed a crime, because -- after all -- the slave was his property.
Paul had every opportunity to write in one of his Epistles that human slavery -- the owning of one person as a piece of property by another -- is profoundly evil. His letter to Philemon would have been an ideal opportunity to vilify slavery. But he wrote not one word of criticism.
Jesus could have condemned the practice. He might have done so. But there is no record of him having said anything negative about the institution.

Just FYI: While these criticism are true, what needs to be remembered is that:
  1. The viewpoints contained in the documents were still a step up from what was being practiced in the surrounding culture.
  2. The pieces of writing being criticized did not have the abolition of slavery as their intended goal. (They did not mention abortion either: Did that mean they supported abortion? No. Likewise, the "moral value" of slavery simply was not the point of the document.)
  3. The slavery practiced at that time and by many cultures in fact was more similar to what we consider to be an "indentured servant" nowadays. The American instance of black slavery being discussed here is considered one of the three worst (by a landslide) examples of slavery ever recorded anywhere in man's history.

Christians wondered why the Bible was so supportive of such an immoral practice. They questioned whether the Bible was entirely reliable. Perhaps there were other practices that it accepted as normal which were profoundly evil -- like genocide, torturing prisoners, raping female prisoners of war, forcing rape victims to marry their rapists, executing religious minorities, burning some hookers alive, etc. The innocent faith that Christians had in "the Good Book" was lost -- never to be fully regained. "

I can agree that, because the Bible was misused to support an evil practice, once the practice was dismissed, the Bible's goodness itself had to come into question. I do not see it as much different than the viewpoint of today's "creationists," who have basically tried to use the Bible to prop up a very faulty conception of the world (such as the "young earth" theory), and once those theories are discredited, the Bible itself is discredited by mere association.

This is one of the reasons I think misinterpretations of a faith are extremely destructive: They end up discrediting the faith itself, when the faultiness of the misrepresentations is finally accepted.
 

darlets

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This is one of the reasons I think misinterpretations of a faith are extremely destructive: They end up discrediting the faith itself, when the faultiness of the misrepresentations is finally accepted.

The don't misinterpret the faith. They honestly follow the bible and don't go through the mental gymnastics that Moderate "Christians" go through to call themselves a Christian.

Moderate Christian are really just deists with Secular Humanist beliefs. Non fundementalist that say they get their morals from the bible are just kidding themselves.

As an aside, I have a great deal of respect for the people (Again who thought themselves Christians) who stood up against Slavery in the U.S. The English opposed it and outlawed it first I'm just not sure what group did it over there.

As an atheist I honestly don't care what others believe as long as it doesn't affect others. I think the fundies break this rule (As I've detailed in other posts) and the moderates don't help the cause by providing shelter for them by calling themselves "Christians".

Both the Moderates and Fundies point the finger at the other and say your not true Christians. The world would be alot better place if the Moderates in Christianity and Islam actually called the fundies on their S@#$.

Moderates Christians really have no excuse for not taking the lead on this, Muslims do it and some have death sentences placed on their heads.
 

cosmicdancer

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Most people do not seem to realize that our current-day ideas of Satan, heaven, and hell are actually not explicitly described in the Bible in consistent terms the same way they speak of them today.

The Qur'an describes Hell very graphically, though.

Perhaps by the time Muhammad was picking up these ideas from the Jews of Medina and Christian Monks of Arabia they had developed into the idea of Hell and Heaven we have now.

A great many of the words Muhammad used to describe these things came from Hebrew and the Qur'an is full to the brim of Old Testament stories - it is hard not to come to the conclusion that most of his sources for the Qur'an came from the very large Jewish presence in Medina and it's surrounds.
 

Totenkindly

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The Qur'an describes Hell very graphically, though. Perhaps by the time Muhammad was picking up these ideas from the Jews of Medina and Christian Monks of Arabia they had developed into the idea of Hell and Heaven we have now.

When was it? 600 AD or so? (Not sure...)
A great deal can happen in 600 years.

We know that one word used for hell or the afterlife (Gehenna) was based on an actual physical landmark outside Jerusalem -- essentially, the local garbage dump, which was always on fire and never went out. This landmark, which did not exist in OT times, definitely contributed to the concept of a hell and as a location that perpetually burned.
 

Totenkindly

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The don't misinterpret the faith. They honestly follow the bible and don't go through the mental gymnastics that Moderate "Christians" go through to call themselves a Christian.

Even where I'm currently at in my faith struggles, I see this as an extremely naive reading of the text. You're a literalist with no seeming understanding of the context in which the Bible was written... exactly the same as the fundamentalists who just quote everything in terms of 20-21st century life.

Moderate Christian are really just deists with Secular Humanist beliefs. Non fundementalist that say they get their morals from the bible are just kidding themselves.

I disagree. Strongly. How many years did you spend immersed in Christian culture again? I don't recall your background. I know I've spent close to 40 years in it, however, and much of it in study and reading and analyzing due to my type of personality...

America is Christianized, so sometimes it's confusing to recognize a "moderate Christian" with someone who is "Christianized" but not actually a professing Christian.

Moderates Christians really have no excuse for not taking the lead on this, Muslims do it and some have death sentences placed on their heads.

Taking the lead on what again, exactly?
 

Sahara

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Jennifer have you seen this?

Hell house outreach kit

I tried to find an actual video online but I am crap at googling, but god damn I didn't realise that the fire and brimstone theory like islam was becoming so pervasive in the US again.

:horor:

(sorry that was off topicish, but I just had to share my shock):huh:
 

Totenkindly

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Jennifer have you seen this?
Hell house outreach kit
I tried to find an actual video online but I am crap at googling, but god damn I didn't realise that the fire and brimstone theory like islam was becoming so pervasive in the US again.

omg... when I went there, I had to look around and make it wasn't parody (like the Landover Baptist site).

But there was no punchline... and then I recalled that, yes, I've heard of them before. Some of the large news magazines (like Newsweek and Time) have done articles on them before (around Halloween, I think, for obvious reasons), exploring their audacity. Many people, even evangelicals, are offended by their methodology.

*groan* Yes, fundamentalism is on the rise over here. Not just the "Christians" but also the atheists (mostly as a knee-jerk "we're not going to take it anymore" reaction to it).

And the Muslim population over here seems to be growing as well, bringing with it a percentage of their own fundamentalists.

Many things contribute to the shift -- ironically, I think, the onset of the Internet and blog-publishing, which allows for the quick development of niche groups and for minorities of like-mind to find each other quickly and organize and build solidarity.
 

Mycroft

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I will never, ever be able to understand how religious INTX's minds don't rip themselves apart like a super-dog that chases its tail so fast the centrifugal force blasts its guts out.
 

Sahara

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Many things contribute to the shift -- ironically, I think, the onset of the Internet and blog-publishing, which allows for the quick development of niche groups and for minorities of like-mind to find each other quickly and organize and build solidarity.

With every blessing there is a bad side, the internet has been good for getting more truth and facts out that no one wants you to know, but like you said, it has connected also the people that would have best remained unconnected. :doh:

That hell thing is awful, I watched one of them say that they allowed 12 year olds in to see it too, can you imagine the kind of damage that could develop out of that? with a movie your parents won;t be saying "Yes bobby, transformers are real, so be very scared", but with this, not only are they watching a horror production that should be an 18, they also have the parents bringing them out and re-enforcing what they just saw "Yes bobby, you gonna burn in hell baby"

:cry:

I feel my crusade side coming to the fore.....
 
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