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Thread: Jesus Loves Me!

  1. #51
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    I will never, ever be able to understand how religious INTX's minds don't rip themselves apart like a super-dog that chases its tail so fast the centrifugal force blasts its guts out.
    heeheheh

    I don't know of many INTXs who are literal readers of the bible--it's about the relational aspect for me, at the core. Perhaps a topic for another thread when I'm done with school on the 24th!
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I don't know of many INTXs who are literal readers of the bible--it's about the relational aspect for me, at the core. Perhaps a topic for another thread when I'm done with school on the 24th!
    As one approaches a literalist/fundamentalist reading of the Bible, the chance of an INTx's brain scrambling irrevocably also approaches infinity.

    (at least, that is how I've felt.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #53
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    As one approaches a literalist/fundamentalist reading of the Bible, the chance of an INTx's brain scrambling irrevocably also approaches infinity.

    (at least, that is how I've felt.)
    lol me too
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  4. #54
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    As one approaches a literalist/fundamentalist reading of the Bible, the chance of an INTx's brain scrambling irrevocably also approaches infinity.

    (at least, that is how I've felt.)
    I'm curious... if the Bible is not a literal guide book to how to act morally, then do you believe it is a figurative guide book on how to act morally? Do you assume that it wasn't written by God then? Do you not feel you could determine this morality without a figurative interpretation... rather, do you see a difference between interpreting a book and interpreting what you could learn otherwise?

  5. #55
    Oberon
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    Actually, while Jennifer has a personal relationship with Jesus, Jesus on the other hand loves everyone. So Jen's in a personal relationship with a guy who's seeing about a billion other people on the side.

    (...thank you, DL...)

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    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I'm curious... if the Bible is not a literal guide book to how to act morally, then do you believe it is a figurative guide book on how to act morally? Do you assume that it wasn't written by God then? Do you not feel you could determine this morality without a figurative interpretation... rather, do you see a difference between interpreting a book and interpreting what you could learn otherwise?
    i want to answer these questions, but am seriously behind on some finals studying, and I want to answer them properly. after friday we should talk this one out.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

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    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    i want to answer these questions, but am seriously behind on some finals studying, and I want to answer them properly. after friday we should talk this one out.
    Sounds good If I miss your post, send me a PM!

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I'm curious... if the Bible is not a literal guide book to how to act morally, then do you believe it is a figurative guide book on how to act morally? Do you assume that it wasn't written by God then? Do you not feel you could determine this morality without a figurative interpretation... rather, do you see a difference between interpreting a book and interpreting what you could learn otherwise?
    Typical S. Hmph.

    Seriously, though, here is how I respond to your question:

    I grew up in a conservative Christian environment. So taking the Bible "literally" means that I had to believe that Jonah got swallowed by a fish, and that the Flood covered the whole earth, and that gays are going to hell, and that Gideon really had God specifically tell him how to beat the opposing army with 300 people (although, really, it just seemed like very smart human tactics at work), and that God gave the entire Law to Moses (although much of it seems like something made up by the social engineers to help Israel survive being surrounded by pagan countries or otherwise distinguish itself from them).

    I see a book compiled of documents created over the span of thousands of years. Each for different reasons. In different environments. By different writers. Forcing one interpretation or way of reading over all these documents at once seems to be very foolish to me.

    As far as the morality aspect goes, I simply find myself in agreement with the sweeping conceptual elements. The fruits of the spirit. Self-sacrifice. Submission to a higher purpose. The weak conquering the strong. Personal responsibility and morality, not public displays of righteousness. Looking after the poor and helpless. The list goes on and on. And I am in agreement because the framework I've derived from my life experience matches up with all of that. So it makes that notion of God very plausible to me.

    So I guess I am saying that I see the Bible as a source of wisdom when you're trying to figure out the principles of life. But I think trying to use it as a detailed listing of right/wrong, do this / don't do that, or as a science book, or even as totally correct history book can result in problems.

    So yes, then... ultimately I suppose I am basing my morality on my own experiences and philosophy, but I find much of the Biblical principles to support it, so I can glean it for truth and understanding of things I might not have experienced yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon67 View Post
    Actually, while Jennifer has a personal relationship with Jesus, Jesus on the other hand loves everyone. So Jen's in a personal relationship with a guy who's seeing about a billion other people on the side.[/SIZE]
    When I found out, I told him to "go and sin no more."

    Now I'm not sure what to do.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Typical S. Hmph.
    Heavenly so! What would you do without some S?

    I'm sure you know how I'd respond to your post so I'll let it pass here, except for one thing...

    So yes, then... ultimately I suppose I am basing my morality on my own experiences and philosophy, but I find much of the Biblical principles to support it, so I can glean it for truth and understanding of things I might not have experienced yet.
    What came first, your moral views or the religion? It seems to be the religion... wouldn't that suggest the the "experiences and philosophy" you have is based upon... well... the religion? It would seem to don't agree with all of it, but it seems like most changes will happen based on how they impact yourself. Do you not see it that way...? Do you find that stance objective - the "I agree with it so it supports (x) stance", despite that the original reason you agreed with it is because you supported (x) stance...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Heavenly so! What would you do without some S?
    Everyone needs some S, or they would walk into walls.
    [I was just lampooning any resident S-a-phobes anyways... ]

    I'm sure you know how I'd respond to your post so I'll let it pass here, except for one thing...
    You know things are bad when we don't even bother to post anymore, since we already know what each other would say. How... IxTP. (

    What came first, your moral views or the religion? It seems to be the religion... wouldn't that suggest the the "experiences and philosophy" you have is based upon... well... the religion?
    I won't deny that I started in the church, and I had a Christian mother, so it was the original foundation for my life and was part of my original worldview and the lens I interpreted life through.

    I think at this stage, what I would hope is true is that I have stepped outside of my worldview far enough (and into other ones) that I essentially "started from scratch." I see that as why the drastic changes have occurred over the last two years... because I essentially tossed it all and started over.

    Obviously I cannot do that 'perfectly' -- but for all practical purposes, I've tried.

    It would seem to -- don't agree with all of it, but it seems like most changes will happen based on how they impact yourself. Do you not see it that way...? Do you find that stance objective - the "I agree with it so it supports (x) stance", despite that the original reason you agreed with it is because you supported (x) stance...?
    As I said above, I think I have been stepping outside of my original worldview a great deal and reevaluating, throwing out the things that do not fit with my experience [which includes the experiences of others with ALTERNATE worldviews and observations of others and the results of their actions] and keeping the other ones.

    As far as the concept of "God" goes, I have no good reason I can articulate to believe in a way that would convince another person. Intellectually, I cannot justify it, although I could argue "for" it.

    But some things just "are" -- whether my parents ingrained it into me, or something else, or whether God is actually real, who knows, but I've realized that part of the fabric of who I am is to believe on some level. And I don't need to explain it or justify it, at least in regards to who I am and what I choose to do in my life.

    I hope I do not sound dogmatic at all. I have just spent most of my life locked in an intellectual mindset, but there now seems to be more to life than purely what can be intellectualized or justified. Of course, there are tradeoffs that come from approaching the concept of God from a different direction... one being that I cannot as easily "convince" someone else of the rightness of what I believe.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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