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Thread: Jesus Loves Me!

  1. #31
    Senior Member niffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    holy shit am I a feeler?
    if you like my avatar, it's because i took it myself! : D

  2. #32
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I understand that traditionally the Hebrews did not believe in anything like hell. They believed in the resurrection - or at least only the Sadducee did. (Or was that the Pharisees?)
    The Pharisees (the teachers of the law who worked very hard to be "perfect" and holy according to the Law) did believe in the resurrection. The Sadducees (which were like the Roman-approved elite priesthood) did not believe in the resurrection and questioned Jesus on it at least once...

    They tried to trap him in the question of, "What happens if a woman's husband dies without giving her a son, and her brother [who was obligated to marry her by Law] fails to give her a son and then dies, and so on, until she has lost seven husbands this way -- well, whose wife is she in heaven?" [Basically, they were insinuating that the resurrection made no sense, because this woman would be married to seven men if they were all resurrected at some point.] Jesus, of course, twisted the riddle around and trapped them...

    I'm trying to remember now if historically there were periods that they didn't even believe in an afterlife at all. Today is a different thing altogether - after Christian theology. There are even Christian churches today who draw more heavily from the Old Testament who do not believe in an eternal hell or a location designated for suffering. They do all believe in a Judgment Day, i think.
    And much of that is a hodge-podge of ideas found in John's Revelation, superimposed over Old Testament theology. It is a little nutty, how it all fits together.

    Even Satan evolved quite clearly, from the OT to the NT and then throughout the Middle Ages. Most people do not seem to realize that our current-day ideas of Satan, heaven, and hell are actually not explicitly described in the Bible in consistent terms the same way they speak of them today.

    Quote Originally Posted by darlets View Post
    "There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral." Rev. Alexander Campbell
    bullet "The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina
    In regards to these two preachers: Does anyone want to play Hangman? Here, I will offer the first word: _ _ _ _ - _ _ _.

    Spoiler Clues:
    The first word means "not smart."
    The second word is a synonym for "donkey."


    People were so ignorant.

    The Bible permitted owners to beat their slaves severely, even to the point of killing them. However, as long as the slave lingered longer than 24 hours before dying of the abuse, the owner was not regarded as having committed a crime, because -- after all -- the slave was his property.
    Paul had every opportunity to write in one of his Epistles that human slavery -- the owning of one person as a piece of property by another -- is profoundly evil. His letter to Philemon would have been an ideal opportunity to vilify slavery. But he wrote not one word of criticism.
    Jesus could have condemned the practice. He might have done so. But there is no record of him having said anything negative about the institution.
    Just FYI: While these criticism are true, what needs to be remembered is that:
    1. The viewpoints contained in the documents were still a step up from what was being practiced in the surrounding culture.
    2. The pieces of writing being criticized did not have the abolition of slavery as their intended goal. (They did not mention abortion either: Did that mean they supported abortion? No. Likewise, the "moral value" of slavery simply was not the point of the document.)
    3. The slavery practiced at that time and by many cultures in fact was more similar to what we consider to be an "indentured servant" nowadays. The American instance of black slavery being discussed here is considered one of the three worst (by a landslide) examples of slavery ever recorded anywhere in man's history.


    Christians wondered why the Bible was so supportive of such an immoral practice. They questioned whether the Bible was entirely reliable. Perhaps there were other practices that it accepted as normal which were profoundly evil -- like genocide, torturing prisoners, raping female prisoners of war, forcing rape victims to marry their rapists, executing religious minorities, burning some hookers alive, etc. The innocent faith that Christians had in "the Good Book" was lost -- never to be fully regained. "
    I can agree that, because the Bible was misused to support an evil practice, once the practice was dismissed, the Bible's goodness itself had to come into question. I do not see it as much different than the viewpoint of today's "creationists," who have basically tried to use the Bible to prop up a very faulty conception of the world (such as the "young earth" theory), and once those theories are discredited, the Bible itself is discredited by mere association.

    This is one of the reasons I think misinterpretations of a faith are extremely destructive: They end up discrediting the faith itself, when the faultiness of the misrepresentations is finally accepted.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #33
    Senior Member darlets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    This is one of the reasons I think misinterpretations of a faith are extremely destructive: They end up discrediting the faith itself, when the faultiness of the misrepresentations is finally accepted.
    The don't misinterpret the faith. They honestly follow the bible and don't go through the mental gymnastics that Moderate "Christians" go through to call themselves a Christian.

    Moderate Christian are really just deists with Secular Humanist beliefs. Non fundementalist that say they get their morals from the bible are just kidding themselves.

    As an aside, I have a great deal of respect for the people (Again who thought themselves Christians) who stood up against Slavery in the U.S. The English opposed it and outlawed it first I'm just not sure what group did it over there.

    As an atheist I honestly don't care what others believe as long as it doesn't affect others. I think the fundies break this rule (As I've detailed in other posts) and the moderates don't help the cause by providing shelter for them by calling themselves "Christians".

    Both the Moderates and Fundies point the finger at the other and say your not true Christians. The world would be alot better place if the Moderates in Christianity and Islam actually called the fundies on their S@#$.

    Moderates Christians really have no excuse for not taking the lead on this, Muslims do it and some have death sentences placed on their heads.
    "The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time."
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  4. #34
    Member cosmicdancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Most people do not seem to realize that our current-day ideas of Satan, heaven, and hell are actually not explicitly described in the Bible in consistent terms the same way they speak of them today.
    The Qur'an describes Hell very graphically, though.

    Perhaps by the time Muhammad was picking up these ideas from the Jews of Medina and Christian Monks of Arabia they had developed into the idea of Hell and Heaven we have now.

    A great many of the words Muhammad used to describe these things came from Hebrew and the Qur'an is full to the brim of Old Testament stories - it is hard not to come to the conclusion that most of his sources for the Qur'an came from the very large Jewish presence in Medina and it's surrounds.

  5. #35
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmicdancer View Post
    The Qur'an describes Hell very graphically, though. Perhaps by the time Muhammad was picking up these ideas from the Jews of Medina and Christian Monks of Arabia they had developed into the idea of Hell and Heaven we have now.
    When was it? 600 AD or so? (Not sure...)
    A great deal can happen in 600 years.

    We know that one word used for hell or the afterlife (Gehenna) was based on an actual physical landmark outside Jerusalem -- essentially, the local garbage dump, which was always on fire and never went out. This landmark, which did not exist in OT times, definitely contributed to the concept of a hell and as a location that perpetually burned.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #36
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darlets View Post
    The don't misinterpret the faith. They honestly follow the bible and don't go through the mental gymnastics that Moderate "Christians" go through to call themselves a Christian.
    Even where I'm currently at in my faith struggles, I see this as an extremely naive reading of the text. You're a literalist with no seeming understanding of the context in which the Bible was written... exactly the same as the fundamentalists who just quote everything in terms of 20-21st century life.

    Moderate Christian are really just deists with Secular Humanist beliefs. Non fundementalist that say they get their morals from the bible are just kidding themselves.
    I disagree. Strongly. How many years did you spend immersed in Christian culture again? I don't recall your background. I know I've spent close to 40 years in it, however, and much of it in study and reading and analyzing due to my type of personality...

    America is Christianized, so sometimes it's confusing to recognize a "moderate Christian" with someone who is "Christianized" but not actually a professing Christian.

    Moderates Christians really have no excuse for not taking the lead on this, Muslims do it and some have death sentences placed on their heads.
    Taking the lead on what again, exactly?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #37
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Jennifer have you seen this?

    Hell house outreach kit

    I tried to find an actual video online but I am crap at googling, but god damn I didn't realise that the fire and brimstone theory like islam was becoming so pervasive in the US again.

    :horor:

    (sorry that was off topicish, but I just had to share my shock)
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    Jennifer have you seen this?
    Hell house outreach kit
    I tried to find an actual video online but I am crap at googling, but god damn I didn't realise that the fire and brimstone theory like islam was becoming so pervasive in the US again.
    omg... when I went there, I had to look around and make it wasn't parody (like the Landover Baptist site).

    But there was no punchline... and then I recalled that, yes, I've heard of them before. Some of the large news magazines (like Newsweek and Time) have done articles on them before (around Halloween, I think, for obvious reasons), exploring their audacity. Many people, even evangelicals, are offended by their methodology.

    *groan* Yes, fundamentalism is on the rise over here. Not just the "Christians" but also the atheists (mostly as a knee-jerk "we're not going to take it anymore" reaction to it).

    And the Muslim population over here seems to be growing as well, bringing with it a percentage of their own fundamentalists.

    Many things contribute to the shift -- ironically, I think, the onset of the Internet and blog-publishing, which allows for the quick development of niche groups and for minorities of like-mind to find each other quickly and organize and build solidarity.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #39
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    I will never, ever be able to understand how religious INTX's minds don't rip themselves apart like a super-dog that chases its tail so fast the centrifugal force blasts its guts out.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  10. #40
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    Many things contribute to the shift -- ironically, I think, the onset of the Internet and blog-publishing, which allows for the quick development of niche groups and for minorities of like-mind to find each other quickly and organize and build solidarity.
    With every blessing there is a bad side, the internet has been good for getting more truth and facts out that no one wants you to know, but like you said, it has connected also the people that would have best remained unconnected.

    That hell thing is awful, I watched one of them say that they allowed 12 year olds in to see it too, can you imagine the kind of damage that could develop out of that? with a movie your parents won;t be saying "Yes bobby, transformers are real, so be very scared", but with this, not only are they watching a horror production that should be an 18, they also have the parents bringing them out and re-enforcing what they just saw "Yes bobby, you gonna burn in hell baby"



    I feel my crusade side coming to the fore.....
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

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