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Thread: Jesus Loves Me!

  1. #91
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    Bluewing, I edited my previous post.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  2. #92
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    In the end, this argument is circular i.e. begging the question.

    Even if you choose it, the argument is still hopelessly flawed, since you cannot support your beliefs. If I iterate the question "how do you support that belief?" to every answer you give, we will soon find that your entire eloborate framework of beliefs is utterly unsupported.

    This is the case, because every logically valid argument is circular i.e. begs he question. This logical fact, in conjunction with the standard that only supported beliefs are rational, entails that no belief is rational at all. In short, you have adopted a self-defeating standard.
    I am not using a justificationist epistemic methodology. I am not saying that only arguments that we know to be true with apodictic certainty are to be accepted, but merely arguments that are best supported.

    'Supported' was merely a linguistic convenience, there was no implication of certainty entailed to that one.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I am not using a justificationist epistemic methodology. I am not saying that only arguments that we know to be true with apodictic certainty are to be accepted, but merely arguments that are best supported.
    That isn't justificationism. It isn't a necessary characteristic of a justificationist methodology, that justified beliefs are also justified true beliefs, or apodictic. The error is still present in your writing, but you have just changed from an infallible justificationism, to a fallible justificationism, but it was never the infallible or fallible character of the justifier that was the problem, but the logical form of justificationism.

    It is equally impossible to take beliefs and support them, as it is to certify them. Now, I realise that this sounds peculiar, but you can completely eliminate these concepts and retain everything you could want from rationality. In fact, it can be stronger. I'd love to discuss it with you now, but I have work to be getting on with.

    Good luck on your book!

    Regards,
    Lee
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  4. #94
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    That isn't justificationism. It isn't a necessary characteristic of a justificationist methodology, that justified beliefs are also justified true beliefs, or apodictic. The error is still present in your writing, but you have just changed from an infallible justificationism, to a fallible justificationism, but it was never the infallible or fallible character of the justifier that was the problem, but the logical form of justificationism.

    It is equally impossible to take beliefs and support them, as it is to certify them. Now, I realise that this sounds peculiar, but you can completely eliminate these concepts and retain everything you could want from rationality. In fact, it can be stronger. I'd love to discuss it with you now, but I have work to be getting on with.

    Good luck on your book!

    Regards,
    Lee

    What's the problem with fallible justificationism? Certainly isnt desirable to be living an illusion that we have sound knowledge.., but that is the best we've got in order to be able to move on...

    In fact, I'd venture to assert that my form of mitigated justificationism (fallible) does not claim any justified true beliefs. As 'justified' implies having reached the conclusion that is not to be questioned again.


    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    That isn't justificationism. It isn't a necessary characteristic of a justificationist methodology, that justified beliefs are also justified true beliefs, or apodictic.
    Certainty is a necessary property of infallible justificationism, though not of fallible justificationism.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    but you can completely eliminate these concepts and retain everything you could want from rationality. In fact, it can be stronger.
    Even though we cant truly support beliefs, we must acknowledge that they have epistemic value, or otherwise we cant move on. The main point of this 'criticalism' phenomenon, as I understand it is that we should avoid falling on the bedrest of dogma by assuming that we could obtain beliefs that are never to be questioned again 'justified'. Hence, we should ask questions not to get answers, yet asking questions is an end in itself--it is an 'Unended quest'.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    'when a Jew loses his faith, he loses his citizenship'
    Jews are similar to Muslims in many ways.

    The sense of community is strong like Muslims.

    That is one of the greatest problems I have been facing and faced by others who leave their religion.

    I have moved away from my old community that I spent all my life with. Away from family friends and collegues - many of whome would be devestated angry and some maybe even violent if they found out.

    I have to start again and build a new life at the age of 48.

    And I am someone who came from a fairly liberal family and community - without the overbearing community that exists in some Muslim communities in the west.

    So I can't imagine how difficult it is for some Muslims.

    Yes I do go back to the reasons I abandoned my faith and that sustains me.

    But I have to say that philosphy and reason are not enough to sustain most people through the mundane routines and trails of life and interaction etc...

    And when I look at my own children - I'm not sure I wish upon them the sense of confusion, and loss that I feel - regardless of how worthy my mind tells me that is.

    I would be interested to read your book.


  6. #96
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmicdancer View Post

    And when I look at my own children - I'm not sure I wish upon them the sense of confusion, and loss that I feel - regardless of how worthy my mind tells me that is.
    See though, they are children, if they are not taught to believe, if they do not have belief forced on them, or their mind shaped by the parents, then why will they feel the sense of loss and confusion you or I do now?

    Ours comes from having lost something, the kids don't have to lose anything in the long run so the situation could be different.


    I would be interested to read your book.

    Yes me too
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    See though, they are children, if they are not taught to believe, if they do not have belief forced on them, or their mind shaped by the parents, then why will they feel the sense of loss and confusion you or I do now?

    Ours comes from having lost something, the kids don't have to lose anything in the long run so the situation could be different.
    That's true.

    I wish though that therev wasn't the problem of them hearing one thing from me and one thing from my ex-wife.

    I feel so guilty about creating this conflict for them.

  8. #98
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmicdancer View Post
    That's true.

    I wish though that therev wasn't the problem of them hearing one thing from me and one thing from my ex-wife.

    I feel so guilty about creating this conflict for them.

    I totally understand, I am going to have to go through that in a matter of weeks.

    I feel guilty too, but at the end of the day, we just need to keep going forward and find a way to work around those constraints.

    I like your approach which was less gung ho than me, and as you know it's paying off already. Little by little, and that is the best we can do.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    See though, they are children, if they are not taught to believe, if they do not have belief forced on them, or their mind shaped by the parents, then why will they feel the sense of loss and confusion you or I do now?
    That is a good question. (Aside from people who say, "Well, if what I believe is the right thing, then I am depriving my kids of the truth, which is stupid...!")

    One of us is bringing up our kids in the church, which I don't really have an issue with, but I am engaging them as well and reminding them that their faith has to be their own and that they should never be afraid to ask questions, nor should they allow themselves to settle for easy answers.

    I want them to feel happy and secure, but I don't want them to feel trapped in a faith or have their whole world come tumbling down if eventually they feel they need to change something.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #100
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That is a good question. (Aside from people who say, "Well, if what I believe is the right thing, then I am depriving my kids of the truth, which is stupid...!")

    One of us is bringing up our kids in the church, which I don't really have an issue with, but I am engaging them as well and reminding them that their faith has to be their own and that they should never be afraid to ask questions, nor should they allow themselves to settle for easy answers.

    I want them to feel happy and secure, but I don't want them to feel trapped in a faith or have their whole world come tumbling down if eventually they feel they need to change something.

    I see that as a balance actually, and that is good, it is as you said so important for them to know that the world doesn't end if they decide faith is not for them, whereas with me (maybe even you) that's not how we saw it, so when we lost faith our entire system crumbled around us and left us feeling empty.

    So you being there, as one side, reminding them of faith being totally personal, and subjective, I see as something positive.

    I was a bit gung ho, guns a blazing when I first started out, but I see now that I can not impress my lack of faith on them anymore than my ex can impress his faith on them, I must achieve a balance, so that I do not fill them with the same confusion I went through.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

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