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  1. #121
    WALMART
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueGray View Post

    :beathorse :

    THERE we go!

  2. #122
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    I disagree with him, but I think Chris Langan has a unique belief unlike any other that I've ever read or heard about. I've watched a few of the videos on youtube of him being interviewed. One video he says God created evolution and I thought if that's not a paradox then I don't know what is.

    Even though I disagree with him I still think he's entertaining.

    Anyone ever read his Cognitive Theoretical Model of the Universe >

    http://www.ctmu.org/

    http://www.megainternational.org/

    I'd like to see Chris Langan and Hugh Ross get into a long winded debate. That would be entertaining and interesting and most probably would be long and drawn out. I would agree more with Hugh Ross than Chris Langan.

  3. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by Werewolfen View Post
    I disagree with him, but I think Chris Langan has a unique belief unlike any other that I've ever read or heard about. I've watched a few of the videos on youtube of him being interviewed. One video he says God created evolution and I thought if that's not a paradox then I don't know what is.
    I don't understand how that's a paradox. To hold that view would require a definition of God as a micromanager. Why can't a God have seeded the planet with life and designed the evolutionary process into his creation? Humans have created AI that learns and gets smarter, I don't see why a God couldn't do the same. I don't think you need to accept the dichotomy of either God-free evolution or the instantaneous creation of fully-evolved humans. Sprinkles is right - evolution and creationism aren't logically incongruent. It's only the dogmatism on both sides of this debate that force it to be so.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  4. #124
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    @Werewolfen

    I haven't seen his material but that doesn't really strike me as a paradox.

    If there is a god that made everything it would be sensible that god made evolution as well. If you've ever 'played' Conway's Game of Life you can kind of see how chains of events can possibly unfold leading to various stages of automata. It's quite possible that a random blob turns into a whole galaxy, and there's a probability of getting a highly complex life form that even duplicates itself or generates other stuff, but it's much easier and more impressive to knowingly draw a shape and watch it progress into something amazing.


  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I don't understand how that's a paradox. To hold that view would require a definition of God as a micromanager. Why can't a God have seeded the planet with life and designed the evolutionary process into his creation? Humans have created AI that learns and gets smarter, I don't see why a God couldn't do the same. I don't think you need to accept the dichotomy of either God-free evolution or the instantaneous creation of fully-evolved humans. Sprinkles is right - evolution and creationism aren't logically incongruent. It's only the dogmatism on both sides of this debate that force it to be so.
    Agreed. IMO God is the uncaused cause and everything from then on followed, including the big bang. Or, perhaps if time is irrelevant then God is giving rise to all things simultaneously. Macromanaging, and therefore micromanaging. I think it's necessary that a person with intellectual integrity accepts at least one paradox as true. Our theories are never going going to add up perfectly, but in this there is perfection in our ability to investigate on assumptions. If our assumptions are found to be wrong, we can always apologize later... To assume we are forgiven.

  6. #126
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    It's beyond my understanding to understand. I just don't have the brainpower.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    @Werewolfen

    I haven't seen his material but that doesn't really strike me as a paradox.

    If there is a god that made everything it would be sensible that god made evolution as well. If you've ever 'played' Conway's Game of Life you can kind of see how chains of events can possibly unfold leading to various stages of automata. It's quite possible that a random blob turns into a whole galaxy, and there's a probability of getting a highly complex life form that even duplicates itself or generates other stuff, but it's much easier and more impressive to knowingly draw a shape and watch it progress into something amazing.





  8. #128
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    I'm going to need a lot of time to process this.

  9. #129
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I don't understand how that's a paradox. To hold that view would require a definition of God as a micromanager. Why can't a God have seeded the planet with life and designed the evolutionary process into his creation? Humans have created AI that learns and gets smarter, I don't see why a God couldn't do the same. I don't think you need to accept the dichotomy of either God-free evolution or the instantaneous creation of fully-evolved humans. Sprinkles is right - evolution and creationism aren't logically incongruent. It's only the dogmatism on both sides of this debate that force it to be so.
    Because it doesn't really answer anything: Begging The Question

    If God is a micromanager, he exists in another plane of existence just like we do and has the same question of who micromanages him. The only difference is you're suggesting he's our creator, but technically our creator is the one that created him, which never sufficiently answers anything, because there is always someone who created someone infinitely (not that the concept of infinity is flawed, but the reasoning of infinity here is circular as well). There are better explanations that avoid these fallacies.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I don't understand how that's a paradox. To hold that view would require a definition of God as a micromanager. Why can't a God have seeded the planet with life and designed the evolutionary process into his creation? Humans have created AI that learns and gets smarter, I don't see why a God couldn't do the same. I don't think you need to accept the dichotomy of either God-free evolution or the instantaneous creation of fully-evolved humans. Sprinkles is right - evolution and creationism aren't logically incongruent. It's only the dogmatism on both sides of this debate that force it to be so.
    while at face value i agree that it's a false dichotomy, i don't think you appreciated the degree to which this devalues creationism:
    unlike agnostics, for which the mere possibility of god coinciding with current scientific paradigms might suffice, for creationism there is a deep seeded belief that in order to explain the splendor, diversity, complexity and seeming order emerging out of the chaos, which defines life as we know it, as well as it's very existence, god is not merely a side dish, but a major requirement, that a miracle is required to explain all of this.

    evolution comes in, the miracle is pushed to the laws of nature
    DNA chemistry comes in, the miracle is pushed to biogenesis
    the RNA world comes in, the miracle is pushed to the still mysterious emergent of cellular membranes
    eventually that will probably be recreated in a lab as well... the miracle would be pushed to the primordial soup.
    solar system evolution is already starting to comes in into planetary levels, and the miracle is pushed to the big bang.
    now out of quantum physics, the multiverse is testing the waters, which means that the required universe to support life conditions isn't a miracle, it's just an unavoidable result of every physically possible universe existing, and we just happens to be in one of those things with life in them, because where else could we emerge in the first place?

    god can coincide on an agnostic level, as a possibility, but the deeper and more through the understanding goes, the less he seems to be needed.

    i think believers are NOT a bunch of idiots incapable of healthy self doubt and reason, they include the same vast diversity of levels of intelligence as the rest of the human species, do in fact ask themselves why they believe... and natural science, well, its stripping them of their best answers, and quite a few of the older generations might fear for their children's faith. this might seem irrelevant to an agnostic PoV, after all they should accept their children no matter what, right? but if for a moment you consider a religious parent's PoV, a belief that your children will actually suffer and experience an infinity of torment for not believing, would you want to save your child from that at all cost? for those and probably many other reasons, scientific theories devaluing the role of the miracle pose both a personal and a sociological threat.

    it is ironic, that simply believing you believe because it depicts the universe in a more meaningful way to you, is in itself not a very meaningful enough belief for most.

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