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  1. #71
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    Hmm, I just love ISFJs. They always seem to have the right attitude and answer. Mine are so complicated and devisive. My husband is an ISFJ. He keeps me sane.
    "My Journey is my Destination."

    "Today Counts Forever." R.C. Sproul

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    That is how I prefer to identify, but my straight friends are all, "Oh, that totally means you are gay," and my gay friends are all, "You are just going through the whole bisexual phase thing." Most of my sexual attraction is geared toward emotional attraction, so gender is fairly irrelevant. However, more often than not I'll identify as gay simply because I've found it far easier to form emotional connections with guys.
    No matter what either side says, stick to what is best for you. I think there is too much pressure from both straight and gay sides to choose. The truth is, very few individuals period, are 100% homosexual or straight. Most operate within a percentage of preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Well, they're clearly all going to straight to Hell.
    Right. The first important detail is the homosexual sex that occurred in Sodom and Gomorrah. Not the fact that the people were deranged enough to think rape was ok, or that they actually went through with it.

    Homosexuality on it's own isn't negative. It's only the human constructs and perceptions that make it so. The best objective measuring stick is nature. There are thousands of documented cases of homosexuality across many species of animals. Some even remain together throughout their lives, choosing a surrogate when they want children, only to go back to their homosexual partner and raise the offspring. Nothing bad occurs. None of the other animals seem to have a problem with it and the species continues as usual. If it was truly wrong, wouldn't nature (empirical science) reflect that?

    Rape on it's own is very psychologically damaging. My closest female friends have been through it. So, I have a solid sample size to pull data from. They are incredibly intelligent, responsible, and thoughtful people. Yet, the experiences of rape have imprinted upon their psyches. It causes them to have self esteem issues, move through the world with an underlying vestige of fear, and it's something that will continue to at the very least minimally affect them throughout their entire lives.

    In a moral story, what is actually the most important point? The act that has the most damaging and lasting significance, or one detail. I think Sodom and Gomorrah is a classic case of misinterpretation.

    Religious books people possess now, have been translated over and over. Inferring much of the original meaning could easily be taken out of context or lost. Even then, not much was known about homosexuality at the time. Religious books are littered with personal opinions and social constructs that are no longer relevant.

    As for the non-orthodox branches of Judaism (and hypothetically accepting the existence of holy books in general), I'm inclined to accept their opinion on matters since at least half the Jewish population reads the Tanakh in it's original language and still arrives at a humanist conclusion.

  3. #73
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Here is the what I always viewed as the harshest passage concerning homosexuality in the Old Testament/Torah:

    "If a man also lieth with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13)

    People from this time period didn't have a very nuanced view on sexuality. I don't understand why we should be giving these old religious books any authority or legitimacy or even the benefit of the doubt on subjects like sexuality.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Here is the what I always viewed as the harshest passage concerning homosexuality in the Old Testament/Torah:

    "If a man also lieth with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13)

    People from this time period didn't have a very nuanced view on sexuality. I don't understand why we should be giving these old religious books any authority or legitimacy or even the benefit of the doubt on subjects like sexuality.
    Well, that's what the Orthodox branches think. (Haredi, Hasidic, etc.) Don't forget the Halakha (Jewish Law). There's an excerpt saying women lying with women is wrong.


    Reform Judaism in particular believes this:


    • Reform Judaism does not believe that the Torah was written by God. The movement accepts the critical theory of Biblical authorship: that the Bible was written by separate sources and redacted together. Reform Jews do not believe in observance of commandments as such, but they retain much of the values and ethics of Judaism, along with some of the practices and the culture.


    Stance on Homosexuality:


    • Although the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah is homosexual in nature, later Jewish tradition (including the Biblical prophets), make no reference to homosexuality and see the true sins of Sodom and Gomorrah to be the cruelty and lack of hospitality to the "stranger" (xenophobia).



    • Homosexuals are God's creation, and Jewish instruction is to love our neighbors as ourselves. It's recognized, for example, that same-sex relationships that include commitment and mutual respect should be sanctified and considered blessed by God. Reform (and Conservative) Judaism has a long history of support for homosexual rights.



    • Reform Judaism views the traditional prohibitions against homosexuality as mores from a bygone age.

  5. #75
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Well, that's what the Orthodox branches think. (Haredi, Hasidic, etc.) Don't forget the Halakha (Jewish Law) which also says women lying with women is wrong.


    Reform Judaism in particular believes this:


    • Reform Judaism does not believe that the Torah was written by God. The movement accepts the critical theory of Biblical authorship: that the Bible was written by separate sources and redacted together. Reform Jews do not believe in observance of commandments as such, but they retain much of the values and ethics of Judaism, along with some of the practices and the culture.


    Stance on Homosexuality:


    • Although the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah is homosexual in nature, later Jewish tradition (including the Biblical prophets), make no reference to homosexuality and see the true sins of Sodom and Gomorrah to be the cruelty and lack of hospitality to the "stranger" (xenophobia).



    • Homosexuals are God's creation, and Jewish instruction is to love our neighbors as ourselves. It's recognized, for example, that same-sex relationships that include commitment and mutual respect should be sanctified and considered blessed by God. Reform (and Conservative) Judaism has a long history of support for homosexual rights.



    • Reform Judaism views the traditional prohibitions against homosexuality as mores from a bygone age.
    How much longer do we have to keep marginalizing and watering-down the Abrahamic religions until we can move on and be done with them?

    Reform/Cultural/Secular Judaism is definitely on the right path though. I think Jews have taken to secular and liberal ideas much better than Christians, and 10x better than Muslims.

    I guess I just want the practically-agnostic Jews to come over to the secular agnostic/atheist team.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    How much longer do we have to keep marginalizing and watering-down the Abrahamic religions until we can move on and be done with them?

    Reform/Cultural/Secular Judaism is definitely on the right path though. I think Jews have taken to secular and liberal ideas much better than Christians, and 10x better than Muslims.

    I guess I just want the practically-agnostic Jews to come over to the secular agnostic/atheist team.
    It's not necessarily watered down as much as it is progressive. The world is incredibly small for those that practice extremely orthodox. Think Amish. Humans evolve. Resources, technology, types of necessary jobs, and laws all change. Reform has been around since the 1800s and use to be the largest practicing branch in the U.S. (up to 80%+ and currently accounts for half the American Jew population). They want to retain Judaism, but only what makes sense in present time. Reform Judaism definitely has a sprinkling of agnosticism and existentialism. With an emphasis on science and reason. It doesn't make it less Jewish, just reasonable for the modern era.

    Why should people that believe in the Jewish version of God, but not the impractical dogma and outdated rules/rituals, be without faith?

  7. #77
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Revisionism? A silly concept. And dishonest. Seems more reasonable to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

    It would make more sense to me to just start a new religion and design it to fit today's society.

    All seems absurd to a person who relies on spirituality which is immutable.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Revisionism? A silly concept. And dishonest. Seems more reasonable to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

    It would make more sense to me to just start a new religion and design it to fit today's society.

    All seems absurd to a person who relies on spirituality which is immutable.
    Not really.

    All religions are completely unfounded. Regardless of creation and interpretation, they are all equally fiction until proven otherwise. So, it doesn't matter if new branches are created from an Orthodox source. They all have the same nebulous value.

  9. #79
    Member TrueHeart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    To the OP:

    My honorary younger sister's parents both graduated from Yale Divinity School with PhDs and studied both biblical languages and translations of the Bible and thier only conclusion on the topic was that it was a mistranslation- the Bible says that it's bad for men to sleep with little boys, not other men... oh the problems that a mistranslation can cause :rolli:
    Which of the "biblical languages" would that be? Hebrew or Greek? And what about the people who... well.. actually have used Hebrew or Greek as their vernacular through the centuries? Since they wouldn't have used a translation at all, whether good or bad, did they understand that "little boys" were the subject of discussion? And which languages have had the "mistranslation"? Latin? French? Italian? English? Spanish?....

    IOW, the proffered explanation sounds a tad too simplistic (and convenient) to me.
    "There can be no understanding between the hands and the head unless the heart acts as mediator." (Metropolis, 1927)

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  10. #80
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    It's not necessarily watered down as much as it is progressive. The world is incredibly small for those that practice extremely orthodox. Nor am I sure they are meant to. Reform has been around since the 1800s and use to be the largest practicing branch in the U.S. (up to 80%+ and currently accounts for half the American Jew population). They want to retain Judaism, but only what makes sense in present time. Reform Judaism definitely has a sprinkling of agnosticism and existentialism. With an emphasis on science and reason. It doesn't make it less Jewish, just reasonable.

    And why should people that believe in the Jewish version of God, be without faith?
    How much longer can reform movements in religion take non-religious modern and Enlightenment ideas and critique and change their religion until their movement becomes more a reflection of those non-religious ideas? I'm all for progression in religion though, I think my issue is mostly semantic.

    I don't have a problem with faith though, some people seem to need it.

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