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  1. #51
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Trust me Sytpg, you're better off not discussing with Victor.
    Trust me, says Peguy.

    I trust Peguy for the simple reason that he has told me he hates me. And I have every reason to believe this is true.

    My friends will save my feelings but mine enemies will always tell me the truth about myself.

    Peguy is good value - I can trust him to tell the truth - and I can trust him never to treat me with indifference.

    For as you know, hate is merely the opposite of love, while indifference is the killer.

    But most of all, I can always rely on Peguy for attention.

    We live in the Attention Economy and we pay each other in attention.

    And there is no such thing as bad attention.

    And as you see below, "Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity". And Peguy is generous with his attention.

    So, you see, you can trust good and generous Peguy.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Trust me Sytpg, you're better off not discussing with Victor.
    I like a challenge, even if people might be laughing at my expenses or being cryptical just for the heck of it. I have a big ego, so I can deal with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    For as you know, hate is merely the opposite of love, while indifference is the killer.
    Yep, that is true. I dislike ignoring anyone. So that is why we are still here. And yeah, you're right about Peguy - from what I've gathered thus far, he seems like a really cool guy. But I didn't need you telling me that "paragraphed story" to arrive at such a conclusion though.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    But I didn't need you telling me that "paragraphed story" to arrive at such a conclusion though.
    The "paragraphed story" is called Telegraphic Prose.

    It is called Telegraphic Prose because the internet is more like the Telegraph than a book.

    So Telegraphic Prose is designed to suit the medium.

    You will notice that most here write in the Conversational Style as though they are talking face to face.

    But they are not talking face to face so they simply nobble themselves with the Conversational Style.

    And of course I don't tell you a story to arrive at a conclusion. I tell you a story simply for the sake of telling a story.

    Doing things for their own sake brings joy.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The "paragraphed story" is called Telegraphic Prose.

    It is called Telegraphic Prose because the internet is more like the Telegraph than a book.

    So Telegraphic Prose is designed to suit the medium.

    You will notice that most here write in the Conversational Style as though they are talking face to face.

    But they are not talking face to face so they simply nobble themselves with the Conversational Style.

    And of course I don't tell you a story to arrive at a conclusion. I tell you a story simply for the sake of telling a story.

    Doing things for their own sake brings joy.

    So that's why you use the telegraphic pose, then.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    So that's why you use the telegraphic pose, then.
    Rather than being a pose, it enables me to set down my thoughts as they occur.

    My thoughts are freshly minted and form patterns on the page.

    They are not going anywhere. They have no need to justify their existence.

    They are just there like you and me.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Rather than being a pose, it enables me to set down my thoughts as they occur.

    My thoughts are freshly minted and form patterns on the page.

    They are not going anywhere. They have no need to justify their existence.

    They are just there like you and me.
    Harder on the eyes, brain, bandwidth (not noticeably but still) and on the "Enter" key, though.

  7. #57
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Only if one adheres to a naturalist perspective.
    let me explain differently. the human brain lacks a sort of "center of presentation" or a general "the will of the mind" center. From there, some people have deduced that the "virtual reality of the brain", must therefore be being presented to a "soul". What i am saying, however, is that we are beginning to describe how consciousness is possible without such a central 'thing' to present the virtual reality to.

    Analogy: if we take a storm apart and analyze it atom by atom, will we find a storm anywhere? No. the storm only exists as a whole. storms have no constant or distinct measurements at all, yet clearly they exist. In the same way, we can take apart brains and find different centers without ever finding "consciousness", because consciousness only arises out of the aggregate whole. And just like the storm, consciousness has no distinct or constant energy or mass content.

    this has nothing to do with having a naturalistic perspective. what it is, is questioning the very way we approach the very idea of consciousness. the idea of having to have the virtual reality presented to a 'will' may be inherently flawed.

    isnt it obvious, that we cant really take our "consciousness" apart because to do so would cease our operation. to imagine ourselves analyzing anything, we have to imagine ourselves as at least existing. thus it doesnt make any sense to try an comprehend what it would be like to be or perceive a process of being.

    when we peel back the linguistic superstition and see what consciousness really is, we can see that its a process. if its a process, than its easy enough to imagine a machine doing it. our brain is a machine. where then, does the soul come in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle
    Consciousness is basically the sensation of perceiving yourself to be thinking. The reason computers cant replicate ourselves is because computers are basically turing machines (010101010) and animal brains are anolog, parallel processing, neural net computer. If we could design a machine/software that could...
    a. be dynamic rather than static (be able to change the very way its even written)
    b. accumulate knowledge about itself (by remembering its responses and responses of others)
    c. built in desires or simulated interests (things that the machine would want to ask about)
    d. rules for spontaneity and randomness (so that it could comply with "do something new")
    e. a mechanism for changing 'b', 'c' and 'd' in response to what 'b' collects.
    f. capable of learning new skills and writing new software for itself (ie: learn how to speak a new langauge)
    g. the ability to build virtual models, run models, and then adjust its skills, methods and conclusions accordingly.

    the fact that such a machine is currently sci-fi is not important. whats important is that the machine we just described would for all intensive purposes be a person: it would have desires, memories, interests, creativity, and the ability to reason, learn, develope and evolve in response to its environment.

  8. #58
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Trust me Sytpg, you're better off not discussing with Victor.
    An intersting recommendation, prefixed by a car-salesman's "trust me".

    Let me assure you Peguy, Victor has more to say in one sentence than a thousand of your copy & paste efforts.

    But Victor is correct. Better dirge than indifference?


  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Harder on the bandwidth
    I think it is quite natural to worry about the bandwidth.

    After all, we have lived in a world of scarcity for 200,000 years. And all our values and ways of thinking have been conditioned by scarcity. Why, the discipline of Economics is based on the idea of scarcity.

    However, for the first time in human history we have overcome scarcity and created abundance in the West, particularly since WW II.

    But our values are still conditioned by the fear of scarcity.

    It will no doubt take some time for us to develop values based on abundance.

    In other words our values are out of touch with reality.

    And so it is quite natural to worry about the bandwidth. Look, look how I am wasting it by leaving all these spaces! I am wasting, wasting a scarce resource!

    On the other hand, this resource in front of us is a very good example of abundance.

    You can take one whole page and post just one word and it takes nothing from anyone else. You can 'waste' as much space as you like.

    There is no need to conserve space anymore - we can dance with as much space as we want, to our heart's content.

    All we need to do is change our values from scarcity to abundance.

    Whoopee!

  10. #60
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It will no doubt take some time for us to develop values based on abundance.
    That's why/how we NFs were invented.

    You can take one whole page and post just one word and it takes nothing from anyone else.
    Isn't what wasting is all about? Others?

    More whitespace means more light is needed for the screen meaning more electricity is needed. More electricity might mean more pollution. More serverload in this forum. The timing of that important post on the other side of the forum might be off, possibly creating strife between two forums posters due to lack of clarification and/or jumping to conclusions. etc

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