• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

A Slow Dance with Victor

kuranes

Active member
Joined
Apr 20, 2007
Messages
1,067
MBTI Type
XNXP
Victor, tell me about what kind of music you are imagining, or, indeed, listening to, as you dance. Is the music a waltz ? Or something more modern, like 12 tone or John Cage ? Do you eve have artners who danc with you ?
 

Anja

New member
Joined
May 2, 2008
Messages
2,967
MBTI Type
INFP
But the inner of each of us is crying out for recognition and contact. But we are simply unable to reach out and hold hands.

Just poppin' in to remind you not to speak for all of us, Victor. ;)
 

placebo

New member
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
492
MBTI Type
INFP
I do not agree with this opinion. Learning to fully understand the meaning in Victor's body of posts is no different and no easier than learning to see the meaning in another poster's consistently fluffy posts.

Oh. Well, that's probably true.

But I meant in general, I don't like the idea of being trained to read anyone's posts. I tend not to read the majority of consistently fluffy posts either. I have this tendency to expect other people to either communicate the way I prefer or I won't pay very much attention to their posts [or them in real life] unless I know they have something valuable to say--which is all maybe a rather self-serving thing to do and also quite unreasonable for me to expect, but so it is. That's why it's so great I've learned about MBTI and how different people have different communication styles--oh in time I will learn. :violin:
 

Anja

New member
Joined
May 2, 2008
Messages
2,967
MBTI Type
INFP
You don't need to be trained by anyone, Placebo, and are probably wise to resist such domination "for your own good." If you should ever want to learn more you'll be your own best teacher. Yup.
 

placebo

New member
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
492
MBTI Type
INFP
You don't need to be trained by anyone, Placebo, and are probably wise to resist such domination "for your own good." If you should ever want to learn more you'll be your own best teacher. Yup.

Thank you, that's sweet :hug: I get antsy when people disagree with me lol... :unsure:
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
A quaint taboo

Just poppin' in to remind you not to speak for all of us, Victor. ;)

I am constantly told this Anja. But group fantasy informs us all.

Of course group fantasy is not talked about. In fact it is stored religiously in the unconscious. And it is guarded by a taboo.

You are a good and kind person Anja so when you see me breaking the taboo, you gently and tactfully remind me not to go there.

In the Mythos the underworld is guarded by two dragons. In other words, the unconscious is guarded by taboos.

And as you know it was Sigmund Freud who started to make the unconscious, conscious in the face of European Fascism.

Unfortunately he came a little early and European Fascism drove him out of Europe.

But today, the electronic media, or the Noosphere, is ineluctably making the unconscious, conscious.

Naturally this is met with reaction as it was in Europe seventy years ago.

Fortunately the Noosphere Fascists will not be able to close down the internet as it is designed to withstand even nuclear attack.

But the Authoritarians will continue to try and enforce their taboos against knowing who we are.

Lloyd Demause will continue to write about group fantasy and the Noosphere will continue to provide hungry ears.

And before long the taboo will become quaint.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
Victor, tell me about what kind of music you are imagining, or, indeed, listening to, as you dance. Is the music a waltz ? Or something more modern, like 12 tone or John Cage ? Do you eve have artners who danc with you ?

These are two good questions.

And when I slow dance I don't dance to music.

Rather I follow the movements themselves.

So rather than following the external rhythm of music, I follow the internal rhythm of my own very slow movements.

However I would emphasise it does really feel like dancing. And I expect it looks like dancing.

Another way of saying this is that I don't enter a hypnotic trance with external music, rather I enter a meditative trance by being aware of my internal movements.

Hypnosis and meditation are both trances but hypnosis is part external and part internal, while meditation is entirely internal.

Or with hypnosis you form a loop with the external, while with meditation you form an internal loop.

And no I don't have a partner to dance with me. But I would like such a partner. And I would like someone who is relaxed about moving in and out of trance, and who can use trance for good purposes.

However when I dance in public, those who watch partake to some degree in the dance trance. So I never feel alone - I feel I am dancing in company.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
Victor, I read this a few days ago and thought about it alot, as it reminded me of a dream I had a few months ago. In the dream a dance craze had swept the country, called "the do". (- Weirdly, the music of Sinn Sisamouth featured heavily.) This was paradoxical, as "the do" was more a "don't", involving nothing more than standing still. As was pointed out during the dream, "even if you don't do the do you can do the do". Time would become non-linear; and as no fancy moves were required, it was highly inclusive! All you had to do was stop "doing". Central to this was the fact it was epidemic and the slowing to a stop universal.

But I rather like your idea.

Cheers!

Yes, Bananatrombones, this is doing the do in Trafalgar Square. It is called the Global Freeze, just click on -

YouTube - The Great Trafalgar Square Freeze

But I don't freeze at all. I keep moving all the time. However my movements are very, very slow. But they are perceptible and can be seen and followed quite easily.

Sometimes my slow dance is mistaken for Tai Chi but it is not Tai Chi.

Tai Chi is following an external pattern of movement - Tai Chi is choreographed while slow dancing is spontaneous.

Tai Chi is a reflection of the outer, while slow dancing expresses the inner.

Slow dancing is the inner in the outer world.
 

Anja

New member
Joined
May 2, 2008
Messages
2,967
MBTI Type
INFP
I am constantly told this Anja. But group fantasy informs us all.

I assume you are talking of the collective unconscious here, Victor. Hee. :D

Some day you and I, and others so inclined, will have to do the slow dance of unmasking the Great Frood for the impostor that he was.

NOT because he was Jewish, but because he was a conspirator in the trance of paeodophillia/drug addiction. And, I may add that even those, sometimes maybe those, can do the trance dance well. He posited many interesting and applicable ideas. Too bad about the other stuff.

*Watches Victor slip, in slow motion, on a banana peel and gracefully fall to the sidewalk. Giggles in a most unkind and unbecoming manner secretly grateful that it wasn't she.* ;)
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
...how different people have different communication styles...

So just as the medium is the message, the style is the sense.

And style, of course, is unconscious - it is very difficult to fake style.

So our style reveals our true self.

How interesting that MBTI is interested in style just when the Noosphere is making style visible.

MBTI gives us a way of talking about style - MBTI is a template of style.

Just as the internet is making the unconscious, conscious, MBTI comes along to help us order our new perceptions.

No wonder MBTI is so popular.
 

Anja

New member
Joined
May 2, 2008
Messages
2,967
MBTI Type
INFP
Thanks for the reference. I put it on my favorites and will check it out when I'm not so busy being silly.
 

placebo

New member
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
492
MBTI Type
INFP
So just as the medium is the message, the style is the sense.

And style, of course, is unconscious - it is very difficult to fake style.

So our style reveals our true self.

How interesting that MBTI is interested in style just when the Noosphere is making style visible.

MBTI gives us a way of talking about style - MBTI is a template of style.

Just as the internet is making the unconscious, conscious, MBTI comes along to help us order our new perceptions.

No wonder MBTI is so popular.

I would see it as the medium being just all the words--we share the same medium, in order to convey a certain message, and with it we happen to utilise a certain style. I don't think it's impossible for someone to try on very different styles ('fake' a style). People do so in such activities as creative writing projects--but I suppose in this context, on a sort of personal interest forum, what would be the purpose of trying to fake a style?

I agree that style does reveal aspects of the individual who utilises the style, if it is the one they are most comfortable with. But I imagine a chosen style can be at least two things: 1) an external expression of what is internal--in which case I feel it is possible to lose something in the translation of what is internal when trying to realise it in the external world, and 2) an attempt to create a specific image, or picture, or atmosphere of something--in this case it doesn't have to have anything to do with 'true' self, but something particular we want to convey.

So in a sense style can mean two different things. Yes it may reveal your self, but it may also be very detached from the self. I do think it is something you can fake--just look at fashion styles. People may choose to dress a certain way, just as they write a certain way, to express themselves. But they can also choose a style of dress that may not be congruent to their internal self.

Perhaps I have the idea all wrong, or your point all wrong, yet this is how I perceive it. I would say your writing style in particular seems to be one you are very comfortable with, so yes, it may reveal a portion of your self (but what do you mean by true self).

I have very little idea of what you are talking about with the MBTI and Noosphere connection to be honest. (I don't have much understanding of noological concepts except that it relates to the human mind I think.) And I mean, I only find MBTI a popular thing on this forum, and in some business interests, but I only recognize the use of MBTI in a very limited fashion outside of the discussion on this forum. I don't really see MBTI as a template of style--my understanding of it is that is is more like a framework of different values and perceptions that people tend to have. Characteristic communication styles also tend to come with these.

Eh.. I'm sorry this message is so long. When I am unclear about something I tend to go on and on so that perhaps someone may clarify me along the way or something like that. My 'style' is it?
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
I don't think it's impossible for someone to try on very different styles ('fake' a style).

One whole thread is devoted to faking my style.

In other words, quite a few tried to consciously imitate my style.

But it didn't come off.

This is because style in general, and my style in particular, is unconscious.

So consciously imitating my style is a futile as a cat trying to fight itself in a mirror.

It looks easy but is impossible to do.
 

placebo

New member
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
492
MBTI Type
INFP
One whole thread is devoted to faking my style.

In other words, quite a few tried to consciously imitate my style.

But it didn't come off.

This is because style in general, and my style in particular, is unconscious.

So consciously imitating my style is a futile as a cat trying to fight itself in a mirror.

It looks easy but is impossible to do.

Well I assume that's because you're style might have quite specific characteristics in it that many people can't pick up and adopt as their own. Or perhaps, everyone was just totally incompetent. Maybe a very skilled impersonator could do it though :jew:

And well I think that's good for you--many artists develop a personal style that can be instantly recognizable as their own in their works of art. I would apply this to you, and some of your more 'poetic posts' as I refer to them.

But there are also much more general styles--perhaps not as specifically personalised, but still rather unique--as you might find, for example some art historians find it difficult to determine who was the exact painter of a specific painting because the style may be so similar to another painter.
 

placebo

New member
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
492
MBTI Type
INFP
Oh wait, I think I might realise where I'm being confused--something between technique and style.
 

Giggly

No moss growing on me
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
9,661
MBTI Type
iSFj
Enneagram
2
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
In the Middle Ages hobos were called holy fools.

It was believed they were touched - touched by God.

But today hobos are usually given a double diagnosis - a mental illness and an addiction.

And just as we have dismissed Church on Sunday, we have dismissed holy fools in the streets.

Today we have banished the ecstatic from the external world, and relegated it to a small pill we call, "Extasy".

But the inner world preserves ecstasy, just as the monasteries preserved learning during the Dark Ages.

So the new Renaissance will come as a surprise when ecstasy dances very slowly in the streets.

In the ecstatic now.

It appears that there has always been an effort made by society to contain ecstasy to some degree. Each individual fights for their brand of ecstasy to be allowed to flourish. I wonder what the world would be like if all ecstasy was allowed to flourish.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
L'alternance

It appears that there has always been an effort made by society to contain ecstasy to some degree. Each individual fights for their brand of ecstasy to be allowed to flourish. I wonder what the world would be like if all ecstasy was allowed to flourish.

It is a natural temptation to want just one side of a distinction to flourish.

But the attempt to freeze just one side of a distinction creates horror.

Here we are distinguishing between the quotidian and ecstasy; or we might say, between the every day and the ecstatic.

But both sides are needed to keep a distinction alive - the way to kill a distinction is to deny the other half - just as the way to kill a marriage is to deny the other half.

In fact, one side of a distinction enables us to rest from the other side - and when we return, we are refreshed and relaxed.

In this case the quotidian refreshes the ecstatic and the ecstatic refreshes the quotidian. Just as you refresh me and I refresh you.

And it is this movement between both sides of a distinction, such as ecstasy and the quotidian, that is called l'alternance.

And it is l'alternance that is the secret of happiness.
 

Anja

New member
Joined
May 2, 2008
Messages
2,967
MBTI Type
INFP
Well, I've been wandering about in The Foundations of Psychohistory and find it to be compelling stuff. It expresses a lot of thoughts I've had about mass delusion.

The roles of dysfunctional family members in any group of six was a Virginia Satir concept, I believe, and one which I have found fascinating as it plays out in groups.

A brief glance through the material doesn't qualify me to ask informed questions about it. Perhaps I may motivate myself to give it a thorough reading some time.

But I do wonder if the group trance which the author addresses may not have a similarity with the concept of collective unsconscious.

I'm on shaky ground in this area having only briefly studied various forms of psychotherapy/analysis.

I can say that I agree with you that the path to personal satisfaction lies in acceptance of apparently contradictory ideas.

In weakness, strength.
The way to resolution of pain is through the pain, not around it.

Things like that.
 
Top