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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I assume you are talking of the collective unconscious here, Victor.
    Of course I am not talking about the collective unconscious - that is Jung.

    I am talking about group fantasy - and that is Lloyd Demause.

    In fact he might resonate with your thoughts - you can read him on the screen in front of you by clicking on -

    Contents - FOUNDATIONS OF PSYCHOHISTORY

  2. #72
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Thanks for the reference. I put it on my favorites and will check it out when I'm not so busy being silly.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Thanks for the reference. I put it on my favorites and will check it out when I'm not so busy being silly.
    Dear Anja,

    I hope you are never too busy to be silly.

    Victor.

  4. #74
    Senior Member placebo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    So just as the medium is the message, the style is the sense.

    And style, of course, is unconscious - it is very difficult to fake style.

    So our style reveals our true self.

    How interesting that MBTI is interested in style just when the Noosphere is making style visible.

    MBTI gives us a way of talking about style - MBTI is a template of style.

    Just as the internet is making the unconscious, conscious, MBTI comes along to help us order our new perceptions.

    No wonder MBTI is so popular.
    I would see it as the medium being just all the words--we share the same medium, in order to convey a certain message, and with it we happen to utilise a certain style. I don't think it's impossible for someone to try on very different styles ('fake' a style). People do so in such activities as creative writing projects--but I suppose in this context, on a sort of personal interest forum, what would be the purpose of trying to fake a style?

    I agree that style does reveal aspects of the individual who utilises the style, if it is the one they are most comfortable with. But I imagine a chosen style can be at least two things: 1) an external expression of what is internal--in which case I feel it is possible to lose something in the translation of what is internal when trying to realise it in the external world, and 2) an attempt to create a specific image, or picture, or atmosphere of something--in this case it doesn't have to have anything to do with 'true' self, but something particular we want to convey.

    So in a sense style can mean two different things. Yes it may reveal your self, but it may also be very detached from the self. I do think it is something you can fake--just look at fashion styles. People may choose to dress a certain way, just as they write a certain way, to express themselves. But they can also choose a style of dress that may not be congruent to their internal self.

    Perhaps I have the idea all wrong, or your point all wrong, yet this is how I perceive it. I would say your writing style in particular seems to be one you are very comfortable with, so yes, it may reveal a portion of your self (but what do you mean by true self).

    I have very little idea of what you are talking about with the MBTI and Noosphere connection to be honest. (I don't have much understanding of noological concepts except that it relates to the human mind I think.) And I mean, I only find MBTI a popular thing on this forum, and in some business interests, but I only recognize the use of MBTI in a very limited fashion outside of the discussion on this forum. I don't really see MBTI as a template of style--my understanding of it is that is is more like a framework of different values and perceptions that people tend to have. Characteristic communication styles also tend to come with these.

    Eh.. I'm sorry this message is so long. When I am unclear about something I tend to go on and on so that perhaps someone may clarify me along the way or something like that. My 'style' is it?

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by placebo View Post
    I don't think it's impossible for someone to try on very different styles ('fake' a style).
    One whole thread is devoted to faking my style.

    In other words, quite a few tried to consciously imitate my style.

    But it didn't come off.

    This is because style in general, and my style in particular, is unconscious.

    So consciously imitating my style is a futile as a cat trying to fight itself in a mirror.

    It looks easy but is impossible to do.

  6. #76
    Senior Member placebo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    One whole thread is devoted to faking my style.

    In other words, quite a few tried to consciously imitate my style.

    But it didn't come off.

    This is because style in general, and my style in particular, is unconscious.

    So consciously imitating my style is a futile as a cat trying to fight itself in a mirror.

    It looks easy but is impossible to do.
    Well I assume that's because you're style might have quite specific characteristics in it that many people can't pick up and adopt as their own. Or perhaps, everyone was just totally incompetent. Maybe a very skilled impersonator could do it though

    And well I think that's good for you--many artists develop a personal style that can be instantly recognizable as their own in their works of art. I would apply this to you, and some of your more 'poetic posts' as I refer to them.

    But there are also much more general styles--perhaps not as specifically personalised, but still rather unique--as you might find, for example some art historians find it difficult to determine who was the exact painter of a specific painting because the style may be so similar to another painter.

  7. #77
    Senior Member placebo's Avatar
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    Oh wait, I think I might realise where I'm being confused--something between technique and style.

  8. #78
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    In the Middle Ages hobos were called holy fools.

    It was believed they were touched - touched by God.

    But today hobos are usually given a double diagnosis - a mental illness and an addiction.

    And just as we have dismissed Church on Sunday, we have dismissed holy fools in the streets.

    Today we have banished the ecstatic from the external world, and relegated it to a small pill we call, "Extasy".

    But the inner world preserves ecstasy, just as the monasteries preserved learning during the Dark Ages.

    So the new Renaissance will come as a surprise when ecstasy dances very slowly in the streets.

    In the ecstatic now.
    It appears that there has always been an effort made by society to contain ecstasy to some degree. Each individual fights for their brand of ecstasy to be allowed to flourish. I wonder what the world would be like if all ecstasy was allowed to flourish.

  9. #79
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    Default L'alternance

    Quote Originally Posted by Hmm View Post
    It appears that there has always been an effort made by society to contain ecstasy to some degree. Each individual fights for their brand of ecstasy to be allowed to flourish. I wonder what the world would be like if all ecstasy was allowed to flourish.
    It is a natural temptation to want just one side of a distinction to flourish.

    But the attempt to freeze just one side of a distinction creates horror.

    Here we are distinguishing between the quotidian and ecstasy; or we might say, between the every day and the ecstatic.

    But both sides are needed to keep a distinction alive - the way to kill a distinction is to deny the other half - just as the way to kill a marriage is to deny the other half.

    In fact, one side of a distinction enables us to rest from the other side - and when we return, we are refreshed and relaxed.

    In this case the quotidian refreshes the ecstatic and the ecstatic refreshes the quotidian. Just as you refresh me and I refresh you.

    And it is this movement between both sides of a distinction, such as ecstasy and the quotidian, that is called l'alternance.

    And it is l'alternance that is the secret of happiness.

  10. #80
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Well, I've been wandering about in The Foundations of Psychohistory and find it to be compelling stuff. It expresses a lot of thoughts I've had about mass delusion.

    The roles of dysfunctional family members in any group of six was a Virginia Satir concept, I believe, and one which I have found fascinating as it plays out in groups.

    A brief glance through the material doesn't qualify me to ask informed questions about it. Perhaps I may motivate myself to give it a thorough reading some time.

    But I do wonder if the group trance which the author addresses may not have a similarity with the concept of collective unsconscious.

    I'm on shaky ground in this area having only briefly studied various forms of psychotherapy/analysis.

    I can say that I agree with you that the path to personal satisfaction lies in acceptance of apparently contradictory ideas.

    In weakness, strength.
    The way to resolution of pain is through the pain, not around it.

    Things like that.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

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