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Could you survive without spirituality?

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
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Jun 6, 2008
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To be honest I don't understand what you're argument is.
Are you first saying that, whether or not there is an afterlife, life is meaningless?

In which case, if you believe that, what point is there to this argument? Why don't we both just kill ourselves? It is strange that you first argue that if there is no afterlife there is thus no meaning in life. This seems to me your own subjective belief. I want you to prove this statement as true.

This not in waht I believe it is something that came out of my head and I could throw it in garbage without problem. It is just that I don't see the logical hole in it.



Look at this this way.

If you live this life you will grow old and die what means that there is no great point in it. To avoid this problem you will have an afterlife that is
forever. But if it is forever then you will end up in problems like it is already said.

To solve that problems you will need to give up on you human consciousness since it will be harmfull for you. But if you need to do that to be able to survive forever then your current position is somewhat pointless.


Why not kill yourself?
Because it is pointless to kill yourself in pointless life.
What I am saying is that our position can't be much more apsurd then it is.

If there is no any kind of God or afterlife everything that is human will be lost with time since it looks like that it is impossble for humans to survive in this reality forever.

Why is that?
It is a long story.

But I can continue if needed.
 

placebo

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This not in waht I believe it is something that came out of my head and I could throw it in garbage without problem. It is just that I don't see the logical hole in it.



Look at this this way.

If you live this life you will grow old and die what means that there is no great point in it. To avoid this problem you will have an afterlife that is
forever. But if it is forever then you will end up in problems like it is already said.

To solve that problems you will need to give up on you human consciousness since it will be harmfull for you. But if you need to do that to be able to survive forever then your current position is somewhat pointless.


Why not kill yourself?
Because it is pointless to kill yourself in pointless life.
What I am saying is that our position can't be much more apsurd then it is.

If there is no any kind of God or afterlife everything that is human will be lost with time since it looks like that it is impossble for humans to survive in this reality forever.

Why is that?
It is a long story.

But I can continue if needed.

There are no logical holes in it if you can precisely define what the 'meaning of life' is--but that I doubt you can do. This specific view that there is no meaning to life is nihilism I believe. There are other points of view you may argue. Thus, if you drop this point of view ('throw it in the garbage' as you say) that there is no meaning to life, can you continue to argue your point? (which, forgive me, I am still unclear about)

If it is pointless to kill yourself in a pointless life, it is still equally pointless to continue living a pointless life.

I think it's best if you continue your long story. I think I can perhaps understand what you mean by the absurdity of our position in life, but this sounds to me like an existential crisis. And so, how does this relate to spirituality or at least, my conception of spirituality?
 

Nonsensical

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Everyone has it, one way another..people think of spirituality as strictly an act of being spiritual; going to church, believing in god, etc. but no. It's based on a deep love, whatever level..could be passion for sports, music, writing, teacher, or whatever. It's all about how you love and how you share with the people along the way. now you may argue with this, but in the end of it all, people don't believe in the same things..we don't all agree..we don't all like the same things..but what's universal..is a superior love, that we will always have for whatever reasons..
 

Samurai Drifter

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I don't think there's anything spiritual or mystical about my enjoyment of activities, or my love for my girlfriend. They're both just the products of electro-chemical reactions in the brain, and love specifically is the result of an evolutionary mechanism to facilitate pair-bonding between mates, so they'll be more likely to stick together to raise their offspring.
 

Venom

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This not in waht I believe it is something that came out of my head and I could throw it in garbage without problem. It is just that I don't see the logical hole in it.



Look at this this way.

If you live this life you will grow old and die what means that there is no great point in it. To avoid this problem you will have an afterlife that is
forever. But if it is forever then you will end up in problems like it is already said.

To solve that problems you will need to give up on you human consciousness since it will be harmfull for you. But if you need to do that to be able to survive forever then your current position is somewhat pointless.


Why not kill yourself?
Because it is pointless to kill yourself in pointless life.
What I am saying is that our position can't be much more apsurd then it is.

If there is no any kind of God or afterlife everything that is human will be lost with time since it looks like that it is impossble for humans to survive in this reality forever.

Why is that?
It is a long story.

But I can continue if needed.


Atheism does not have to equal nihilism. Value is not lost because it doesn't last forever. Value does not depend on infinite time.


If you sat on a rock in space by yourself and lived forever: you would not find your life to be meaningful.


What makes a FINITE LIFE meaningful is the same stuff people probably imagine themselves doing in an INFINITE AFTERLIFE. Just because those activities dont last forever here on earth, does not mean they lose all meaning. Just because I will never relive my greatest moment in sport, does not rid it of the value it has to me. It happened, period. It sits there like a pearl on a string of time. The point of life is to create these pearls of value and fill up whatever string you have. The very fact that we can arrange these atoms in a particular way (rather than perfect entropy), and add value to the universe, makes our lives meaningful. Live for loves, love of learning, relating, knowing, creating etc... just because it isn't forever, does not mean it lacks value.
 

Ishida

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Yes, I could survive. But my purpose would be to die, really. There is no meaning in anything, not in religion, science, life, death, or even truth.

Everyone has it, one way another..people think of spirituality as strictly an act of being spiritual; going to church, believing in god, etc. but no. It's based on a deep love, whatever level..could be passion for sports, music, writing, teacher, or whatever. It's all about how you love and how you share with the people along the way. now you may argue with this, but in the end of it all, people don't believe in the same things..we don't all agree..we don't all like the same things..but what's universal..is a superior love, that we will always have for whatever reasons..
Everyone has their gods, eh?
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
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Jun 6, 2008
Messages
19,769
There are no logical holes in it if you can precisely define what the 'meaning of life' is--but that I doubt you can do. This specific view that there is no meaning to life is nihilism I believe. There are other points of view you may argue. Thus, if you drop this point of view ('throw it in the garbage' as you say) that there is no meaning to life, can you continue to argue your point? (which, forgive me, I am still unclear about)

If it is pointless to kill yourself in a pointless life, it is still equally pointless to continue living a pointless life.

I think it's best if you continue your long story. I think I can perhaps understand what you mean by the absurdity of our position in life, but this sounds to me like an existential crisis. And so, how does this relate to spirituality or at least, my conception of spirituality?

There is a catch, from my perspactive of course.
The thing is that you and many other people in general are searching for a purpose. But on the other hand I have deteached myself enough that something crystallized in my head.

Sinceever people are searching for answer(s) on this question but what if the quetion itself is wrong? What if we are searching simply because our brains alows us to do so? But what if we are just playing games with our brains and we don't even grasp the basic things about reality since we have a need for purppose.
What I am saying is that things can get so impersonal and abstract that nihilism is not the right word for it.


This was in short but I will give you much more information. I know that for this you will need about 30 minutes of reading for all of this but this is what I am saying from the start but explained in more detail.
I have opened this thread exactaly because I think that all forms of spirituality will disapear with time.


Inhuman thoughts


The point of this one is that typical do-good principle is not always good choice since it can lead to disaster. Skip the frist chapter, the chpaters about food production and crysis at far east are what matters here.


(Un)sustainable development
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
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There are a lot of different definitions and ideas about what spirituality is.

But if we define it as: of, pertaining to, or consisting of spirit; incorporeal (of, pertaining to, or characteristic of nonmaterial beings)

We could all very well be living without spirituality right now. But since we can't prove that nonmaterial beings/things don't exist, we'll never know.
 

Jack Flak

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There are a lot of different definitions and ideas about what spirituality is.

But if we define it as: of, pertaining to, or consisting of spirit; incorporeal (of, pertaining to, or characteristic of nonmaterial beings)

We could all very well be living without spirituality right now. But since we can't prove that nonmaterial beings/things don't exist, we'll never know.
I remember having an argument about the definition of spiritual. Some people insisted it was basically the equivalent to "having emotions." But I begged to differ, and I did, I did.
 

Virtual ghost

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There are a lot of different definitions and ideas about what spirituality is.

But if we define it as: of, pertaining to, or consisting of spirit; incorporeal (of, pertaining to, or characteristic of nonmaterial beings)

We could all very well be living without spirituality right now. But since we can't prove that nonmaterial beings/things don't exist, we'll never know.

I remember having an argument about the definition of spiritual. Some people insisted it was basically the equivalent to "having emotions." But I begged to differ, and I did, I did.

You can defiine it however you want but I think that all versions don't have a future.
 

ajblaise

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You can defiine it however you want but I think that all versions don't have a future.

I think the idea of spirituality is going to keep becoming popular, and religion, less so.

That seems to be the trend. The idea of spirituality is more individual-friendly and comfortable to the kind of person who might not find organized religion appealing but still believes in God or some sort of greater power.
 

Darjur

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I'm as spiritual and as religious as a rock already and that's how I've always been.

About attacking people.
Normally, no, I ignore them unless they start babbling too much.
On the other hand of fact, if these are the people whose life depended on their "religion", I will attack them. I'm fully aware that this is immature, but I will try to destroy their beliefs with all of my might.
 

Lady_X

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yeah...i haven't caught up so sorry if this is out of place...but i have to agree that the term spirituality can't be as vague as all that...it lessens it quite a lot to say it's about emotions...or love...it's more then that...everybody...i think?? has the ability to feel that but that does not mean everyone is spiritual...to be spiritual means to believe the spirit is eternal and that it has a spiritual home outside of the physical...so when you die you go there...the individual has their own idea about the details but i'm pretty sure that covers the basic idea.
 

Jack Flak

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yeah...i haven't caught up so sorry if this is out of place...but i have to agree that the term spirituality can't be as vague as all that...it lessens it quite a lot to say it's about emotions...or love...it's more then that...everybody...i think?? has the ability to feel that but that does not mean everyone is spiritual...to be spiritual means to believe the spirit is eternal and that it has a spiritual home outside of the physical...so when you die you go there...the individual has their own idea about the details but i'm pretty sure that covers the basic idea.
Yeah it does.
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
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I think the idea of spirituality is going to keep becoming popular, and religion, less so.

That seems to be the trend. The idea of spirituality is more individual-friendly and comfortable to the kind of person who might not find organized religion appealing but still believes in God or some sort of greater power.

But my point was that humanity itself has on future technological development is too strong that mankind can stay like this.


I'm as spiritual and as religious as a rock already and that's how I've always been.

About attacking people.
Normally, no, I ignore them unless they start babbling too much.
On the other hand of fact, if these are the people whose life depended on their "religion", I will attack them. I'm fully aware that this is immature, but I will try to destroy their beliefs with all of my might.

I don't think it is immature at all. It is politically incorrect but I think that this position is quite valid actually.
 

ajblaise

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But my point was that humanity itself has on future technological development is too strong that mankind can stay like this.

I agree that technological development thrives best in a secular and scientific environment. But being into spirituality and having faith doesn't necessarily hinder one from making advancements, as history has shown. Being a religious fundamentalist might.
 

simulatedworld

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and my initial reaction would to be to say...a life without meaning and purpose is pointless so no thanks...

lawlz. Can't have purpose or meaning in life without insisting that we know for certain the deep inner workings of the universe and its god, hm?
 

placebo

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The point of this one is that typical do-good principle is not always good choice since it can lead to disaster. Skip the frist chapter, the chpaters about food production and crysis at far east are what matters here.


(Un)sustainable development

Spirituality is not a 'do-good principle' first of all, so I believe your latter point is moot to me.

Spirituality does not directly make me wish to be morally righteous—it is not a cause, nor is it the reason.

For me, it is simply a feeling, separate from these other desires. It is a very strong feeling. It is not a belief in the afterlife, or paradise. It is not a whole set of emotions, neither do I believe that everyone has a sense of spirituality. I am pretty sure that not everyone does. But it is part of my reality.

Neither would I say that spirituality gives me a purpose of life. But it gives me a sense that there should be a purpose in life.

I will focus now on what you said near the beginning

The thing is that you and many other people in general are searching for a purpose. But on the other hand I have deteached myself enough that something crystallized in my head.

Sinceever people are searching for answer(s) on this question but what if the quetion itself is wrong? What if we are searching simply because our brains alows us to do so? But what if we are just playing games with our brains and we don't even grasp the basic things about reality since we have a need for purppose.
What I am saying is that things can get so impersonal and abstract that nihilism is not the right word for it.

Hopefully I have read this right... I'll try to reword it as I interpreted it so you may point out if I made a mistake. So you suggest that people's search for a purpose in their life is simply like an automatic brain mechanism that we allow ourselves to 'follow' and that in fact it actually distracts us from what is real (reality) in the world.

But let me argue against what I think I have understood you to say. Let's say I agree that searching for a purpose in life, or asking this question Why? is indeed a brain mechanism.

What if I suggest that it makes no difference, and that this is not something that we can change?

Let me compare it to another ‘mechanism’ that we use commonly in life. Rationality.

I argue that rationality itself is also an automatic brain mechanism. Why should we believe in it…? Why should we be rational? Why should we be scientific?

In short, the basis of rationality is our belief that the future will always follow from the past. But why should I believe that the future will be like the past? What if instead, I believed that the future will NOT follow from the past. This is possible for me to believe, just like it is possible for you to believe that we do not need to have meaning in our lives.

Just as we would say that if we were not ‘rational’ and if we believed instead that the future would NOT follow from the past, we would undermine the whole of rational thought, as well as science. We can think the most unseemly things, such as, even though every time someone jumps off a really tall building, they die, THE NEXT time someone does it, he or she won’t. Just as we would say that if we believed the purpose of living was not to have a meaning in life, then we would not have any incentive to live, we would not have a necessity for life itself—thus, there is very reason for us to simply die (without a fight), or to kill ourselves.

Can you prove that we should believe in rationality? Can I prove to you that we should find a meaning in life?

Just like it is natural for us to be rational beings, it is natural for us to be creatures that search for a purpose in life.


However, one does NOT have to be spiritual in order to find a purpose in life. That is only one aspect in life that not everyone may share.

In my opinion, people have a huge misconception about what spirituality can be. This is because the religious have taken this word and messed it up by associating it with the woes of organized religion.

Spirituality does not have to be dogmatic. Spirituality does not have to be defiant of reality. Spirituality, however, does have several definitions. This is the problem with the word, just like there is a problem with the word ‘God’. It is too personal for us to share the same meaning of the word. However I still believe myself to be a spiritual person.



Let me take a quote from a lecture on some of Nietzsche’s ideas I was watching on Youtube. (link here - YouTube - Nietzsche: Nihilism, Death of God 3/4) I think it explains something I agree with quite well:

[Nietzsche believed that] the more perspectives we adopt and the more evidence that we gain from different perspectives the closer we are to having a good perception of whatever it is we're studying. He will still not say 'the true thing' because he thinks there is no 'true' thing. It's always the thing as perceived from different perspectives. But nevertheless the more perspectives the better.

But this means not just scientific perspectives. There are also ethical or moral perspectives, there are religious perspectives, and of course, there are aesthetic perspectives.

...

One can contrast for example, the aesthetic perspective and the scientific perspective. There is an image that I sometimes use -- a friend of mine, who is a poet. We were sitting in a cafe once and there was a flower on the table, essentially, as he would put it, "stretching its petals towards the sunlight." And I thought, 'Wonderful.' But, I was a biologist. I knew about turgor and all these other things that would explain why the flower was doing what it did. And I thought, here's my scientific explanation, and here's his poetic explanation. Which one is better? And obviously it depends what we need them for, but in the context of having a cup of coffee, I was perfectly happy to say, the aesthetic was preferable.


You have not detached yourself from searching for a purpose in life. You are trying to view it in a strictly scientific perspective. But is any perspective of it the sole truth?

Perhaps you may understand why I reject your notion that the future will lack any spirituality.
 

Virtual ghost

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I think that you didn't get it but that is alright.

Also I was talking about typical do-good spirituality but I did not say that you are like that, since you are distancing from it since the beginning.

What I am saying in "Inhuman thoughts" thread is that emotions and rational thought don't have a chance to survive on the long run. Both of them will be disapear with time since chances that mankind will surrvive in definitively is 0.
But how will it extinct is is debetable and there is plenty of things that can be said about this.

The only thing that could change this odds is God(s) worshiped by religions.

This is the reason why scientists are attacking the standard/traditional version of spiritulity so much.
That is because modern spirituality is quite undefined and it actually has no real arguments.
The entire thing in general comes down to a situation that people feel warm in their hearts and try to survive the best way they can. What is ok by me, but I think that this can't last far into the future.
 
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