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  1. #11
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    EEG measures neuron aggregations -- not specific activity.
    The brain was still doing shit, but it wasn't anything the terminals placed on her head could pick up.

    The memory of the sounds themselves could possibly have been made without being analyzed by your grandmother's consciousness. Then when she came back, she recalled the sounds.

    Same way she'd be able to recall the wonderful music. Shit happened, just not in typical aggregated form: which means the inducted voltage wasn't enough for the electrodes on her head to detect.
    we fukin won boys

  2. #12

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    Things like this thread are why atheism isn't really any more rational than spiritual belief. Scenarios are being offered under the de facto assumption that some kind of afterlife is impossible. "Well, this may be unlikely, or I can't think of anything right now, but I know it's not THAT." It's no different than the way religions bend over backwards to explain things in a way that incorporates their dogma.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  3. #13
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Well, I've had time now for a scan of the info Jack offered and found it interesting.

    Apparently the lack of sophistication of the instrument cannot measure exactly the amount of brain function which exists. I wonder if there are qualities of the brain which may not be measurable from a scientific standpoint. That idea itself raises interesting questions.

    One article mentions certain "residual vegetative functions" which may be the reason for accurate perception of what is happening while the patient is, at this stage of ability to diagnose anyway, clinically dead.

    I find it difficult to believe that a vegetative brain, or a well-functioning brain for that matter, is somehow able to discern objects in the room which are no longer there when the patient regains consciousness. There are a multitude of examples of this happening during NDEs and no one has been able, thus far, to explain it.

    I can't believe that all of those examples have been faked because everyone in the emergency or operating room had a hidden agenda to push Christianity on to people.

    Another, frightening, thought which occurs is the question of cremation or organ donation. If we are unable to determine when a human has stopped perceiving - Yikes!

    And Yikes! to Nocapszy and Jack's reading comprehension skills, as well. Heh.

    Dang. I just can't resist. . .
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  4. #14
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    ...I find it difficult to believe that a vegetative brain, or a well-functioning brain for that matter, is somehow able to discern objects in the room which are no longer there when the patient regains consciousness.
    What?
    This is confusing me.

    The question is whether the brain could perceive the item when it was in the room, right, while the person is out -- not where it is later? (So what does waking up later have to do with anything?)

    I can't believe that all of those examples have been faked because everyone in the emergency or operating room had a hidden agenda to push Christianity on to people.
    That would be silly.

    The question is whether or not the phenomena being observed is better explained by some mystical "after death" experience or simply a residual effect of biology and biochemistry and neurology and whatever else that we have not yet discovered or understood properly.

    And there's been a lot of precedent for thinking some things are mystical/magical and then science discovered a predictable and dependable explanation for them.

    So we have to be cautious as we proceed ahead.

    Another, frightening, thought which occurs is the question of cremation or organ donation. If we are unable to determine when a human has stopped perceiving - Yikes!
    That's actually a serious concern and why people argue so much around "end of life" scenarios. We don't want to be harvest items from live people.

    PS. Glad your friend made it through.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    You're rephrasing what I said in a Tee manner, Jennifer. We've said the same thing from my perspective. What it has to do with the patient waking up is the significance, seemed obvious to me, that the patient self-reports observation of an item which it seems, couldn't have been observed in his comatose state.

    Edit: And on your second point. Yes. That seems to be the question. Is what is happening measurable or is it "something else?"
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  6. #16
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    You're rephrasing what I said in a Tee manner, Jennifer. We've said the same thing from my perspective. What it has to do with the patient waking up is the significance, seemed obvious to me, that the patient self-reports observation of an item which it seems, couldn't have been observed in his comatose state.
    No, it sounds like you're saying that the patient observed something while "out" that she couldn't have observed while being awake.

    That's different from what I said. (I thought you meant something that the patient could have observed if awake.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #17
    Senior Member The Third Rider's Avatar
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    I find this whole thing fascinating really. I was reading this and assuming is not a hoax than this is interesting:
    People born blind can see during a near-death experience
    ENFJ 3W4

    If you read this I am sorry to say that you just lost 5 seconds of your life that you wont be getting back.*

    *Actual time may vary.

  8. #18
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    A further question would be that if you no longer exist, once clinically dead, how are they able to call "you" back to life? You no longer exist!
    I think this has been mentioned before in regards to EEG, but what you say here has two interpretations: one, that something must exist outside the body and be recalled, so to speak... and two, that you weren't really gone in the can't recover sense.

    I think evidence shows 2 to be the most likely - it is likely difficult to quantify the exact moment. Especially when I think about chickens without heads running around!

    Anyone want to give a stab at helping me to understand your line of thinking regarding this?
    My thinking starts with questioning the initial prompt - were they able to describe what happens? It seems that it happens, but it's actually very easy to imprint that kind of story/knowledge onto people. It can be entirely accidental (I'm thinking especially about the research into abused children, where blind trials are able to generate incredibly graphic and horrible stories from placebo/control children...) and viewed as incredibly accurate/consistent... yet still be fabricated. Heh, most memories are like that. I'm still trying to get over a fabricated memory on where someone lived (I completely remember them living somewhere other than where they did... <_< )

    If it was true that this happened, the question would be about questioning where the information comes. I would work backwards in terms of probability - what constitutes revival, time of death, awareness and so forth. I'd look for cases where people were blind, for example, or otherwise unable to see. This would probably happen during step one - questioning the premise - because the evidence cuts both ways. Blind people could also suggest fabricated memories.

    Since it can't be a controlled experiment, it would require a vast amount of evidence to support that something really far from the ordinary was happening - but if both sets of possibilities were eliminated, then the question would remain open-ended and unexplained. Assuming a set answer complete with implications happens when the reliability of the explanation is high, and without a way to test something directly, reliability will remain low. Sequential cases and more investigation/controls to gather the data would increase the reliability. In short, it would have to become way more controlled before it was up for serious inspection, and the more that it built up, the more control would be applied.

    Certainly not all of the multitude of documented cases can be hoaxes.
    Hoaxes isn't the right word, IMO. The problem isn't with people trying to trick others! It's that the reliability of what we know is very low. And systemic effects can cause large volumes of misleading data (to illustrate this, I used the abused children example - it had a profound impact on how children were questioned.)

  9. #19
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    No, it sounds like you're saying that the patient observed something while "out" that she couldn't have observed while being awake.

    That's different from what I said. (I thought you meant something that the patient could have observed if awake.)

    Just a matter of an awkward sentence. 'sokay.

    *Mutters*
    Nitpickin.' Sheesh. :steam:
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  10. #20
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Okay, I see what you're saying, pt. That makes sense to me.

    Not looking for any conclusions on this one and appreciate any and all perspectives.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

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