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  1. #51
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    I've read the Bible all my life. New Testament. There are many good ideas for living well in there.

    Revisionism is interesting and not always in line with the original intentention.

    Anything that helps people get in touch with how their spirituality is entertwined with the earthly gifts is fine with me.

    My opinion is that the first religion is the more proper. So if the Christians want to find their way back it's all good.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  2. #52
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirsch63 View Post
    As I mentioned in my earlier post, fear, fear of loss (of control) is the only reason to react so strongly to the subjective aesthetics of a biblical publication.
    And what control are these people afraid of losing?

    This is not the Medieval period where the Church was the center of society, this isn't even the "Christendom" that Kierkegaard condemned in the 19th century. That system collasped in wake of WWII.

    So I don't see how this is an issue of control.

    I oppose this because it trivalises and degrades the message of Christ.

  3. #53
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    I'm against bending scripture/religion (which I don't even believe in anyway) to cater to someone's comforts. Denominations, various translations, its all dumb to me. Isn't Christianity supposed to be a man/god relationship?

  4. #54
    Senior Member Hirsch63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I think Hirsch overreacted to my remark, which he sometimes does.
    If my reaction to a suggestion that books should be burned (no matter how distasteful) or that (judged) heretics should be burned along with them reads as somthing like overreaction or indignation, well then I'm happy to be guilty. I am somewhat surprised that it seems unremarked by others here who's opinions I value.

    If your statement was a jest, perhaps you could have modified it with a carefully selected emoticon? That way the shades of legions of tourtured and slain jews, christians, blacks, gypsies etc. as well as us living could look upon your remark and see that it was just a goof! The idea of informational power used to justify horrific ends goes well beyond the church of course, but that will never excuse the practice. For my part the wrongs of organized religion (and scientific enquiry for that matter) however profound can and should be weighed against many goods that also emanated from the same source. It is never all black and white, though I can fall into that trap as well as anyone.

    I believe that we can all be better than we are using our gifts. I am encouraged to see this meaningful (I hope) discussion here in the forum...as usual Peguy you are capable of providing good grist for the mill. I feel that you are capable of a very great deal and would not see that potential led blinkered into a corner where it cannot be used to it's greatest advantage. I appreciate the respect that Peguy has advanced me this far. And I only care to respond because I have a similar regard for him.
    Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings...Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king

  5. #55
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    You know I like you Peguy and I realize this is a sensitive subject to you, so I didn't react, but but I second Hirsches comment on your remark about the burning of heretics. I realize you were joking. But if I didn't know you, I'd steer clear of you for a while after a remark like that. For me, joking about burning heretics hits a sensitive nerve...
    I love your passion and don't let me stiffle you, but do take on board the comments you get on what you sometimes say in the heat of the moment
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  6. #56
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noseflubber View Post
    The history of the printed word is an economic history..... you actually think there's integrity? or supposed to be?
    noseflubber said it. It's bound to happen. Probably have a lot of sparklies and a unicorn on the cover?

    Somebody trying to bring sexy back to the Bible? Hee.

    Peguy? He's The Iron Marshmallow. Yeah. I think he is.

    With a fine brain, besides.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  7. #57
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirsch63 View Post
    As I mentioned in my earlier post, fear, fear of loss (of control) is the only reason to react so strongly to the subjective aesthetics of a biblical publication. Both theists and scientists have seen their works misused to the ends of bloody tyrants.
    Those are good points. I have two seperate parts on why I don't like seeing it, but I'm not strongly against it... doesn't affect me deeply, it's just a negative indicator to the systems interacting.

    The first is that it forces working from a pre-formed conclusion: climate change is bad. The prompt for the religious concern still comes from the same source, but now it isn't up for debate (within the systems, the debate changes). Under an empirical system, the purpose is to observe and predict, which means that this is not assumed. We determine what is the situation is as best we can and attempt to predict what the situation is likely to become. I believe this system should be protected in society, even if it conflicts with other issues. High scrutiny, but where it investigates, we improve... but what shouldn't happen is that we act in accordance or against it outside of what it discovers. It is a very powerful tool, but must be limit-bound by what it does well. Now, if we change systems to religion, all of a sudden, the system is built around what God said many years ago, and now we have compounded assumptions on how we should behave (God says this way and that climate change is real). In an ideal world, the two would work together - identify a problem and maybe a solution, plus provide the moral responsibility to carry it out. I wish I could say that this is what would happen, but I agree on your points too much... the opposite tends to happen - identify a problem and maybe a solution that doesn't really exist, then support it with moral guilt/cult following.

    I see this as a manifestation of trying to support something empirical, under review, with religion. This removes the context to why the problem was even discovered. It is just as bad as having a negative belief pressure, such as if God said "exploit and burn the earth". Both sides work against the system that discover, refine and predict, though it just depends what side you are on in the climate debate (or the severity, which is very nebulous.)

    The second reason is the one I sort-of described earlier... related to what I said above, but at a larger scale. I see religion as transient, like scientific discoveries. Once upon a time, knowledge and religion were bound up together. Religion is being pushed back to only those things that are not explainable otherwise. This is the evolution of humanity - religion as a proxy for morality and so forth. Once upon a time, it was a guide to throw stones and wipe out opposing tribes. Now it somehow preaches love and so forth, if you make enough selective choices, anyway. It evolves with society.

    I use evolution here because it is a natural selection process. As ideas and concepts attempt to make their way into human society, they undergo tests - do they help that aspect of society, will people believe it, does it help groups stay together, etc. In this way, religion must evolve. Those that remain stagnant take up 'physical space' in society, meaning tangible ramifications of the belief system. Other systems that are more effective - including science, in terms of creationism and so forth, also take up space. Right now we are at a point where we simply ignore them, but if you work back through history, it's entirely possible for religion to both support and work against those advances. They aren't two seperate things, just different abstractions of systems.

    Why do I connect these, you ask? There is collateral damage in the evolutionary process. Religion attaches itself to modern movements - those movements being the development of new mindsets that would develop into 'religions'... Instead, what I see is evolutionary systems destroying competitors. And it works both ways. Instead of climate change invoking overall social change, like through its own pseudo-religious environment, the other systems take advantage of it turn it into negative forms of their own systems. In science's cases, it's the whole 'publish or die', 'funding' and 'attention' aspects that are negative. And on the other side, you have what I think these things represent. Not an attempt to change religion, but to bring this item under religious jurisdiction. Just as science gains from the debate, as much as it would never admit it, so does religion gain from the faith-mindset. Not a particular "religion", but "religion" in and of itself (codified sets of beliefs).

    To be clear, I'm abstracting all this from simpler behaviors. The reason it happens at all is because it is profitable to sell these items to people that are in the middle between religion and green. Good market segmentation, no doubt. I don't see it as some conspiracy, just the outcome of two abstract systems in a social context.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    I'm against bending scripture/religion (which I don't even believe in anyway) to cater to someone's comforts. Denominations, various translations, its all dumb to me. Isn't Christianity supposed to be a man/god relationship?
    Christianity is really about one's relationship to the world and especially to other Christians.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  9. #59
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    It's not really a matter of mere disagreement with people. I get along quite well here with people of various belief systems. Just last night I was chatting with alcea rosea, who's a skeptic. Then this past week or so I discussed privately with Amargrith about her pagan beliefs. Then me and Orangey are always bantering with each other about our differing perspectives. heart is a Gnostic. And the list goes on.

    I'll even openly state that often I prefer the company of non-Christians over Christians.

    I certainly respect peoples' right to their beliefs; but that doesn't mean I have to accept their beliefs as actually being right. And it certainly doesn't mean somebody has the right to disrespect my beliefs.
    Spoken like a true christian.

    And yet topics like this one -- this applies more often public, but it applies here so I'm bringing it up -- continue to pop up.
    Sounds like some of us don't practice what we preach.


    Because our Lord called upon us to love our enemies.
    Spoken like a true christian.
    we fukin won boys

  10. #60
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Oh also, I hope you can read my posts all the way through in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by The end of my last post
    And peguy, before you go flying off the handle at me like you have these magazines, hear this: I'm not just talking about you, and I'm not just talking about Christians.
    we fukin won boys

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