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  1. #41
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirsch63 View Post
    Fear and immaturity are right here, plainly to be read. Is this the attitude of a follower of Christ, or a slave to church dogma? I'm sure it is if we take the offensive, abominal and criminal historical actions of the church into account. Souls uncounted were tortured and destroyed in the name of the church to "protect" the integrity of it's position. This is old, available and well-understood history motivated by the basest of human interests with no real reference to divine law. Burn heretics? are you serious? Do you think what happened long ago was forgotten; that writing a statement as patently offensive as this could be excused by your disgust for these two publications? This is simply out of line.

    Would I buy either of these books? Probably not. I can find passages myself in conventional sources to support our responsibility to creation...and I am sure others could find just as many passages supporting the notion of creation as essentially ours to dispense with as we see fit without reference to stewardship or husbandry. The idea of "slicking up" a version of the New Testament to draw in an audience who might otherwise ignore it should offend only those who stand to lose something from that possibility and have no faith that the word can stand up to any presentation. There should therefore be no representation of the Word in any other form than that available to a select few, or approved by them? Sounds very familiar. Of course when efforts were first made to provide legible translations to the laity centuries ago the church took persistent steps to capture, torture and execute those trying to expand the understanding of the Word. It is disappointing to see that this mindset survives especially in one who has gifts enough to amend many of the hurts perpetrated by the church and expand a truly "universal" understanding.

    The uniform of faith is that of the healer, the open, helpful hand and guide; not that of the judge, soldier or executioner as it has all too often been understood to be by insitutions hoarding and exercising it's inherent power, the ultimate, pathetic sorrowful irony of our history.

    You wish to burn books? Or better yet those books along with those who might read them and come to a different conclusion than you? I cannot with propriety dispense my full response to your writing on this forum. In short it could best be expressed by the phrase "grow up".

    Hirsch, I actually have great respect for you. So in light of that I'm choosing to just ignore most of this post.

    And yes I'm very aware of the history involved here. For one thing, the opening of the Vatican archives have shown that the scale of burnings, torture, and executions in general was vastly exaggerated. In many cases, burnings of effigees was falsely counted as actual executions.

    According to researchers into the archives, barely 2% of people ever brought before the Inquisition were executed - and even then most of the time was done under provisions in secular law. Henry Kamen for one noted that the Inquisition had the lowest execution rate of any court in Europe at the time - an average of 3 people per year.

    As for translating the Bible; that was done throughout the early Medieval period. Alfred the Great comissioned an English translation of the Bible, Charlamenge commisioned a translation into German; and the missionaries Ss. Cyril and Methodius translated it into Old Slavonic.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    Night, I confess that I find it hard to keep up with the reading on this forum. I did you an injustice. I hope you will forgive me. Yours is not the usual position on evolution. I'm not sure from my cursory reading now where you stand on Creationist thinking. I withdraw, humbled.
    "My Journey is my Destination."

    "Today Counts Forever." R.C. Sproul

  3. #43
    12 and a half weeks BerberElla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Hirsch, I actually have great respect for you. So in light of that I'm choosing to just ignore most of this post.
    Hmm, I would have thought having great respect for someone would mean you would not "ignore" most of their post.
    Echo - "So are you trying to say she is Evil"

    DeWitt - "Something far worse, she's an Idealist"

    Berb's Johari Berb's Nohari

  4. #44
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    Night, I confess that I find it hard to keep up with the reading on this forum. I did you an injustice. I hope you will forgive me. Yours is not the usual position on evolution. I'm not sure from my cursory reading now where you stand on Creationist thinking. I withdraw, humbled.
    No, madam -- there is no need to apologize.

    You've paid me no injustice. You protected an opinion important to your identity. There is no shame in defending what you hold dear.

    The error was likely an obstacle in clarity on my part as opposed to a failure of comprehension on yours.

  5. #45
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    Personally I'm still holding out for the "Psychonaut's Bible" and I know some other folks waiting for the "Punk Bible". Babble on, Babylon.
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  6. #46
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerberElla View Post
    Hmm, I would have thought having great respect for someone would mean you would not "ignore" most of their post.
    Well he certaintly made some remarks directed at my character; and I have no intention of turning this into a personal dispute that could ruin the respect we have for each other.

    I think Hirsch overreacted to my remark, which he sometimes does.

    I did address him on the arguments concerning the Inquisition and translating the Bible - so it's not like I'm refusing to discuss with him in toto.

  7. #47
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    Here's a book that I read which was interesting, and not too terribly tangential. Don't let the "in your face" anti-religion header of the site discourage you from checking out the book that they are providing free access to. It was a book that was much shorter than a long one like "An Experiment in Christology", which I also own and never got around to reading.

    The First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  8. #48
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    I don't understand these religious folks and the outrage they experience when someone finds differently to them.
    It's not really a matter of mere disagreement with people. I get along quite well here with people of various belief systems. Just last night I was chatting with alcea rosea, who's a skeptic. Then this past week or so I discussed privately with Amargrith about her pagan beliefs. Then me and Orangey are always bantering with each other about our differing perspectives. heart is a Gnostic. And the list goes on.

    I'll even openly state that often I prefer the company of non-Christians over Christians.


    I wonder why they don't just let them be wrong.
    I certainly respect peoples' right to their beliefs; but that doesn't mean I have to accept their beliefs as actually being right. And it certainly doesn't mean somebody has the right to disrespect my beliefs.

    It would seem to make sense -- most of these religious nuts develop and foster ill will for their 'adversaries' and opposition. You'd think they'd be comfortable (since they're so sure that it WILL go this way) letting them burn in hell for the wrong beliefs.
    Because our Lord called upon us to love our enemies.

  9. #49
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuranes View Post
    Here's a book that I read which was interesting, and not too terribly tangential. Don't let the "in your face" anti-religion header of the site discourage you from checking out the book that they are providing free access to. It was a book that was much shorter than a long one like "An Experiment in Christology", which I also own and never got around to reading.

    The First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity
    I'll try looking into it. I think I can already outline much of the argument, since I've much of this so many times before.

    Nevertheless, despite my misgivings, thanks for the link.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Hirsch63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Perhaps I should say that I don't like seeing an entire segment of the population motivated for reasons that would disrupt the cost/benefit and risk measurements of a tangible problem, in this particular case.
    Not all of us, despite the advances in communication have the ability or inclination to intellectually grasp the implications of scientific discoveries... myself included. In this respect the message that the scientist has and the message that a biblical text has share a common problem; representation and interpretation. Information is power.

    Scientific proofs as you noted are (inherently) subject to revision. It is the very spirit of scientific discovery and ethic. Yet data will be used indiscriminently by any number of people or organizations to advance purely subjective points of view unto an (at least) disinterested public, more responsive to the studied manipulations of commerce.

    Biblical text as a matter of it's very spirit and ethic must stand alone to be understood to the extent that it's hearers's intellect allows. When that text is manipulated in any form as it is passed down through the centuries it is compromised. Or when it is doled out selectively to those unable to interpret it, then becomes a tool of control and manipulation in the hands of those not worthy to hold it and their manipulations every bit as studied and developed through long practice as those of comtemporary commerce.

    Control of information, the power to choose how others may see it is the most elemental power that there is. The only way to lessen the grasp of those who would distort is to disseminate as much information as possible to all. Much will fall on deaf ears. some will be inspired to read, then study then learn and gain some control for themselves. The outcome cannot be chosen, but having fewer people interested only serves the ends of those who would maintain hegemony.

    As I mentioned in my earlier post, fear, fear of loss (of control) is the only reason to react so strongly to the subjective aesthetics of a biblical publication. Both theists and scientists have seen their works misused to the ends of bloody tyrants.
    Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings...Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king

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