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  1. #1
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Jun 2008

    Lightbulb Inhuman thoughts

    The reason why this is posted in this section is because question is philosophical and thread should become more philosophical with time, even if there is a strong psychological element in it. The central question is very old one: Can a person become so detached and create values system(s) because of which others no longer can see him/has a human being in psychological sense?

    This is not a thread about me but I am forced to use my personal experiences, since that is the only way to represent the full size and depth of the question and only way to define actual topic.
    Since many people have said to me that I donít talk about myself enough they will get a chance to satisfy their desires here. Also many of my posts will get a deeper context.
    Second purpose of the thread is to talk about things and logic that horrifies normal people.
    This thread will probably effect readers in a negative way and this is also an explanation of how is like to be a very INTJ.

    Also I am aware of that there is oxymoron in the title, but it is there for a reason.

    There is more in me then this post says and I think that I am probably more socially skilled then my posts would suggest. But there is a quite large part of me and I am not sure that it has humanlike qualities. (And this is a about this side)
    First read the post/thread then judge.

    Probably many people on this forum think that I have this name because I am very introverted and as such I am asocial. But that that is just an alibi, I am really anti-social. (more or less)

    Through my life I have played a lot of video games. I have played them as a kid and I still play them. Today there are many fears that shooting games effect a player in a very bad way since you get used to pull the trigger and I played a lot of those games in my life.
    But I have played strategy games much more. They are probably more dangerous for a mental health then shooting games. In shooters violence is quite personal and number of dead is relatively small.
    But in a strategy games you are watching deaths of thousands as you play a game since the game is coordination of military operations. What means that you have a lot of fire power at your disposal and your only goal is ďdoing what it has to be doneĒ. For example my enemy digs his troops inside a town, that usually means a lot of close combat and entire thing can take a while to solve so to hurry things up, I use the simplest solution. Which is carpet bombing of the entire place, non-stop. This way you can end your mission faster and with lower losses but you have also leveled an entire town. It is amoral but it gives more time to study and do you homework.
    Sometimes the mission can be to destroy some of the monuments of the world such as the Statue of liberty. Personally I have done it with a salvo of cruise missiles lunched from ships in an Atlantic ocean.
    If the game is SF you can literally command alien forces on a mission to wipe out mankind out of this reality.

    If someone wants to discus this topic more we can open a thread about it. It will be an interesting one. But why I am saying this?

    Because of this have I never developed a normal level of empathy. What desire by normal standards. My level of empathy is quite low even for my type. Not only that I have seen how billions of people die I have also ordered their death. (If you warm up the nukes number drastically goes up).

    Of course those are virtual situations, but this allowed me to think about people in a form of numbers and statistics. So in the end that means that I donít relate to people around me, at least not in way the other do. Since you donít relate to other people you donít have a strong need to hang out with them. What means that you are cut of from social main stream most of the time. What means that you think on unusual way by default.
    You canít show it to the others because after 60 seconds the other person says ďStop it man, you are freaking me outĒ

    Since ever I have talent for science and ability to see the big picture or future quite well.
    I actually live for the future and in my head I am creating pictures of it and I try to see what will happen. Since I donít have any siblings or cousins there was never someone similar to my age and bound to me, so that they can balance me out. Plus my lack of interests in social rituals kept me away from forming very strong bounds with others at school.

    Because I am future oriented it became obvious that I will end up alone with time since I am the only member of the family which is a member of my generation and everybody else is much older.
    So it becomes unavoidable that I will end up alone in this world.
    Since my level of empathy is what it is I am technically a sociopath.
    What means that it became possible for me to look at this scenario without freaking out.
    I have even gone that far that I tried to estimate their year of death so that I know from when I will be on my own. It isnít that I want them dead at all, we get along great but I canít deny that this is a battle that is meant to be lost no matter what happens and I accept it as such long time ago.
    I simply donít see the point in spending a sleepless nights because of it since it canít end on any other way that this.

    Because of the random events in life I was never baptized as a baby and at the age of 4 I have became anti-religious since the entire thing look like blackmail to be good over an entire year so that I may get my presents at Christmas. Actually I still think this way.
    Because of scientific interests over the time I have become even more hostile and critical towards this idea(s). With time I have decided to become a geologist since I am interested in geography and astronomy since I was a baby. .
    But geology is one of the most atheistic parts of science since the evolution is the main element in it.
    So, in the end when it comes to religion or spirituality in general I do not exist in this sphere of life or it does exist in me. I am clearly an atheist in formal and practical sense and I have never prayed in my entire life. Not even once.
    As a person I deny the existence of spiritual sphere of life and I am against this way of thinking/feeling. I think that God does not exist but I also think that there is a need for a God in general. But that does not make him real. In other threads I have said and some other people have said/showed that the entire spirituality as we know it is probably just an ideal.

    One other thing that my geological training showed to me is that societies are entirely environment based.
    Everything that we eat and consumes comes from the environment which has it limits and properties.
    I had my doubts even before this but this made it clear that in general society doesnít know what they are doing and that there in not no great plan. There is just a spontaneous growth.
    This is a big argument/topic so I will post it as a separate thread.


    In a case someone is interested.

    The inevitable conclusion is that entire politics is just an extension of human natural instinct and it follows the rules that are written in those instincts. The entire global politics actually comes down to ďyou give me this and I will give you thatĒ or ďIf you donít do this I will give you this or thatĒ or ď you are not playing by the rules an you are going to pay for thisĒ

    People (in general) look at politics and they are enjoying the complexity and variety of opinions and think that people in this area are very smart and that they know what they are doing. (unconventional options included)
    But only thing that they are doing in playing by standards that are set long, long ago.
    One of the main parts of those standards is that only thing that matters are people, what is just an extension of a survival instinct. What in the end means that everything is ok if people are alright and they can do what they want (Like having a normal life).
    What means that they are willing to expand into ďuncharted territoryĒ if there is no obvious threat. But the catch is that the most dangerous threats are those that are invisible and they are usually hidden in trends and statistics. What means that they are impersonal and to some degree inhuman. What means that in the end people will have a problem in seeing the problem since problem is counterintuitive.

    This is one of the main reasons why I donít believe in democracy. People in general are simply too connected with their intuition and instincts to be trusted to make a right choice.
    What goes more and more likely as tech-level goes up.
    Not to mention that expression ďdemocracyĒ has lost its meaning since the invention of mass media. In conditions like this democracy is impossible by definition.

    Communism has failed mainly because it was built as dream and not on facts and realistic possibilities. What are the same reasons why capitalism will probably collapses. (Explanation is in the other thread.)

    Modern environmentalism is also doomed to fail since environmentalists are acting based on their convictions instead that they try to form something that could make someone to change their mind. Since the idea has become a part of pop culture it is doomed to fail in its task.

    Those are main reasons why I donít have any political role model.
    In my entire life I have never voted for anyone and I am not feeling closeness with any political options. (Conventional or unconventional)
    I would even dare to say that political ideologies are falling / failing not because they are flawed but because they are just ideals that will never fully come to reality.
    All of them are based on principle that people should do this or that but they are not interested in questions like ďWhat can be doneĒ and ďwhat is sustainable on the long runĒ.
    One of the main reasons is that they fail at that is because there is too much imperative on people and human needs. (In a good and a bad way)

    One more thing that geology made clear for me is that different rock formations and fault lines are extending over countries borders. What made me even more open minded towards the idea that nations are just a fiction created by human mind. Actually we are just marking our own territory and nations exist only because in the past there was enough space for groups not to live close to each other.
    Of course if you study geology they will not teach you things like this but a lot of things I have learned there can be easily transformed into this kind of though, since I have very rich inner life, this happens all the time.

    Because of my interests I have also lost standard concept of time. Most people usually donít go up or down more then 100 years. Some times they think about thousands of years.
    I do the same thing but on the scale of billions of years.
    Every day I am thinking about events that happened hundreds of millions of years ago after all I need to know plenty about it since I need that knowledge for exams. So there is a no way that I can just forget it. But there is a catch, because humans are something very new on the Earth, most of the time there was no humans on Earth, what means that I have a quite easy time to imagine and think about the world in which there is no humans.
    Not just that there are no humans there is no animals and plants also. There is no atmosphere we know and there are some different continents out there and they are separated by oceans that no longer exist.

    This is has a quite big impact because I donít take many things for granted as others do.
    Since people are not even familiar with how different things out there can actually be.
    What greatly effects on a principle ďEverything will be just fineĒ If you take a normal meaning of the word ďfineĒ. There is no way that things will turn out fine.
    There are only 4 major scenarios what can happen on the long run.

    1. Mankind is destroyed by their own weapons (nukes, biological weapons, chemical weapons or classic warfare to the end)

    2. Mankind stays how it is for a long time so the evolution becomes visible and entire species splits on many species because of that. Then those species evolve until you can't even see human form in them or they destroy each other.

    3. Mankind is destroyed by natural forces. Forces like viruses, crazy level of tectonic activity, asteroid/comet impact, black hole or neutron stars collision and ÖÖ.

    4. Mankind starts to change itself and its environment so that it could expand through out the universe.

    Only alternative to those scenarios is that religion is literally true what doesnít looks likely. But this scenario brings in even more problems then it solves.
    This can be discussed later in greater detail.

    Also I am astronomy geek, so not only that I can look through huge timescales I can also look and notice where I am in a big picture.
    Also I am big fan of Astronomy so I would dare to say that I am more aware then the others about our position if we take a look at the big picture.
    This includes knowing that in the car at the 200 km/h you will need about
    23 000 000 years to reach the nearest star.
    Which is only 4.24 light years away and there are stars that are billions of light years away.
    Plus - time is not constant in all parts of the reality, our picture of the world is illusion (it is illusion created by the brain), black holes, asteroid impacts, and countless billions of years that are yet to come.
    It is one thing to read something like this in some magazine from time to time and another thing is to be fully aware of it all the time.

    I think that only by merging those two ways of looking at your environment and time you can actually see the big picture as it really is.Those two are big picture of environment and big picture of time.

    When you have a so big ďarea of sightĒ and enough knowledge you can understand that things are always changing and that object such as all infrastructures we have built canít survive in definitively. Since time spans that are in front of us are incomprehensive to human mind and there will be a huge number of fundamental changes in the far future. Such as death of the sun, major asteroid impacts or the raise of concentration of neutron stars and black holes in the galaxy or collision with Andromeda galaxy.
    Even that level is only beginning of the beginning.

    All of this can look quite distant to people but this is not nearly as distant as it looks like. If there will be such a difference in the big picture and there will be so much destruction it is inevitable that nothing you create has a real meaning or purpose.
    Probably time spans look like an eternity but when you take a look at a clock you will see how the time is going second by second it does not matter that there is a huge number of them before its get ugly. Maybe it is far but how can you stop it?
    Since things you have left behind canít survive in definitely your life and your achievements donít mean much on the long run.

    I think that so many people are obsessed with the end of the world is just a consequence of the fact that the alternative horrifies them. Since the alternative is the time that goes on and on and it never stops. Even if time can end that doesnít mean much since reality gets destroyed. You donít even have to look that far to get some similar conclusions.
    Since species change with time there is no chance that humanity as we know it will exist some 100 000 years from now. One the bigger timescales the change will be behind recognizable level. The world is full of people who think that evolution did not happen and on the other hand they are afraid that some virus or bacteria will change itself and become dangerous (for them or food supplies). I am sorry, but this is evolution at work.
    The organisms changed their properties and thatís it, they are no longer what they have been. So this is a direct proof that thing like this can happen. (And they will continue to happen). For larger organisms it takes more time to do this but on a timescales longer them human life there is a same effect which can be seen in fossil record and recently they have managed to see the entire thing in the DNA.(as far as I now)

    That was the past now I am going back to the future but this time on a smaller timescales.
    In recent decades there are major advances in linking a natural and artificial.
    What means that if the trends donít stop there will be huge changes in the world.
    Even if someone mange to create laws against this kind of activity there is no assurance that someone canít do the research in secret and if you add thousands of years in the concept it is quite unlikely that this can be placed on hold for ever.
    Maybe if we manage to create a global police state, were privacy doesnít exist which will last for the rest of the eternity, maybe then we will have a chance to stop it.
    Not to mention that this state would be based on the technology you are trying to stop at all costs. The only alternative is that there will be the end of civilization.

    But I donít see the point in doing that since there is no chance that humanity will stay this way forever. In many areas of development we have stop, since we donít have what it takes to continue and tech level will have to go upper by a large degree if any form of life plans to survive in this reality in definite. (If that is even possible)
    There is simply too much ways that life can be destroyed that it is still questionable is life the purpose of just a side effect that will vanquish with time. Actually the same question works for matter also. But to know more we will need to know more what means that things canít stay as they are because that will kill any chances of survival on the long run. So it looks that our only long term choice is to sacrifice our humanity for civilization or do things that are de facto surrender. So I donít see that much point in insisting on human approach. People can swear that they will prevent merging with machines but they have no assurance that their grandchildren will not accept the call. Only thing that is enough for transformation is that only one generation in the next 10 000 generations does this. Even If we manage to scatter mankind across the universe, we will be placing them in a very different environment(s) what means that they will continue to evolve differently form each other together with everything that serves as their food.
    What means that we will get huge amount of species that will probably fight wars between each other. But I you start developing toward the ďartificial lifeĒ this problem no longer exist. Because of this I donít see a purpose in insisting on human values.
    This can be discussed to a greater degree.

    The main reason why I am posting so much material about: past, future and humanity is that I want to show where am as person in a political and philosophical sense.

    This has enabled me to turn the logic of life upside down.

    Normal logic goes: Well, I am alive now and I will try to live my life and see what happens with time.

    My logic: I am dead for sure and I will live my life just to see what will happen.

    I will stop here because I think that there is already plenty of negativity for just one post and I donít want to alienate myself completely. (In a case I already didnít)
    Probably most of the people that have read this took the data quite negatively, what is totally reasonable if you understand what you were just reading.
    The point of the entire story is that all of this is negative just because you intuitively think that this is just plain wrong.
    What is easy to miss is that this way of thinking leads to totally different, I would dare to say Ė level of living a life. This is mostly because dogmas and social dogmas which people canít throw out of their lives, donít exist at this level.

    You can live a life without being constantly stressed or living in a fear that something bad will happen to someone you care about. Buy all means I am not talking about that you should just give up from everything. I am talking exactly the opposite of how this sounds since this gives the ability to work and live without many emotional problems and it gives you ability that you donít lose your head in difficult situation and you can recover from trauma very fast if you even need time to recover.

    In the case that someone starts a discussion that I am mental there would be a one problem with that idea, since there someone must ask a question in what case I am mentally sick.

    Am I physically violent towards others?
    I have never been in serious fight and I donít plan to be. My empathy is very low but I donít use this against other people. Actually I can be good ally in crisis since I have a strong shielding because of my unconventional approach.

    Do I have a problem with being responsible?
    Usually people who are irresponsible donít graduate from high school as the top of their class. Ok, the competition was not too strong, so this is not too strong argument.

    Have I ever been romantically in love?
    No. This is one of my flaws. But it would be interesting to try.
    Especially in cases when a woman starts to understand who she is dating.

    Am I depressed?
    The only thing I actually have with the depression is that I am not social butterfly.
    Actually I have a lot of energy and I only doubt my actions and not myself as a person.
    Since I have turned the logic of living I simply donít have anything to be depressed about. As my poetry teacher in high school said ďPeople donít commit suicide because life is pointless. But because they believe in that life has a meaning (money, God, drugs or women) and if you donít believe in meaning you have no reason to kill yourselfĒ.

    Do I help other people?
    My natural position is not to get involved (in general) but if they ask for help I will help them.

    So there are not too many arguments that I am evil or a sociopath in real sense of those words.

    I think that you canít really explore the big questions because things like fears and hope will probably create too much fog to see anything. Plus this unconventional way of thinking actually has a lot of hidden beauty in it. For an example you have much easier time with stress.

    For example all those silly tests in test section are designed to be fun and silly but if I take a look at my scores on them there can be some conclusions that can come out of it.
    But in most tests I canít even relate to many questions.

    The most indicative was the one that says where you belong as a person and what environment is right for you.
    I got: Borg cube

    The word ďBorgĒ is not so important here as much some principles that go with it.
    I am sure that the main reason for getting this is my sub-score on human traits.
    Test has nailed it quite well actually.

    ? You scored 13% on Humanity-overall, higher than 0% of your peers
    ? You scored 16% on Humanity-hedonism, higher than 0% of your peers.
    ? You scored 8% on Humanity-spirituality, higher than 0% of your peers.
    ? You scored 16% on Humanity-romance, higher than 1% of your peers.

    In cases when people have a problem with my mind that is because of their fears of fear to face their own personal standards and the validity of those standards.

    This doesnít mean that I donít have a sense of humor but to say the truth I havenít criedÖ. Actually I canít remember when it was the last time. We are talking about years here for sure. I simple donít see about what should I cry about.

    Post is too big.

  2. #2
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Jun 2008


    Al of this created some social problems, except the obvious ones.
    People function in a way that the surprise each other all the time, sometimes even shock each other. What is a problem since it is impossible to influence me in that way.
    Simply because everything they ďthrowĒ at me, good or bad is no match for my inner world and standards and I simply canít say this with out sounding narcissistic.
    So I will sound narcissistic.

    After everything I said, how it is possible that I will have compassion about someone that had a painful brake up of a nice relationship?

    This simply canít be done. Because this kind of event is so small in the big picture and it is not nearly as bad as it look (By my standards of course.)

    Actually one of the main reasons why I have become more social lately is because I have no else to expand then in social sphere since my life dilemmas are solved.

    Since I have probably managed too push people a little bit from their usual way of looking at the world, we can now talk about things in more unconventional ways.
    But the main topic is still: Can human become inhuman in psychological sense, even if the topic looks like a provocation after this post. It is just that I donít see the other way to get deep enough without this.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    Jul 2008


    Hello Mr. Blue. I see you have a new user account.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  4. #4
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Jun 2008


    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    Hello Mr. Blue. I see you have a new user account.
    I was thinking how many posts will take to get something like this.

  5. #5
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Nov 2007


    Can a person become so detached and create values system(s) because of which others no longer can see him/has a human being in psychological sense?
    Depends on the others, but I say nope.

    No matter what anyone thinks, all humans have an incredible amount of psychological commonalities. Manifestations are different due to genetics and nurture, but that's incidental.

  6. #6
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Jun 2008


    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    Depends on the others, but I say nope.

    No matter what anyone thinks, all humans have an incredible amount of psychological commonalities. Manifestations are different due to genetics and nurture, but that's incidental.
    I agree with you and I think that I am human being. Probably not the most conventional one but I consider myself to be a member of the club.

    What exactly do you mean when you say "depends on the others"?

  7. #7
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Nov 2007


    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I agree with you and I think that I am human being. Probably not the most conventional one but I consider myself to be a member of the club.

    What exactly do you mean when you say "depends on the others"?
    Well, it's possible for someone to not consider you a human being.

    But I think they'd be wrong.

    It was just a response to your choice of words -- irrelevant to the question you're asking I think.

    This sort of reminds me of the problem of language acquisition (which I'm studying right now in school). If there were no inherent constraints on possible languages humans could learn, language would be impossible, as it would be impossible to narrow down the set of sentences that make sense. Therefore we all are born with constraints on the possible languages we can learn. I figure this logic applies in many areas of human perception.

  8. #8
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Jun 2008


    It was just a response to your choice of words -- irrelevant to the question you're asking I think.
    It looked to me that there could be a deeper meaning.

  9. #9
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Nov 2007


    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    It looked to me that there could be a deeper meaning.
    Well, I mean, your question was "Can a person become so detached and create values system(s) because of which others no longer can see him/has a human being in psychological sense?"

    And the answer really depends on who these "others" are.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
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    Aug 2008


    A lot to read.
    Let me start off with saying that you've brough up things that I have thought and pondered about and yet, I wouldn't consider myself inhuman, as I wouldn't do with you. The same with the thoughts, even if they would be considered.. I'd say realistic with pesimistic approach.
    A high realist, is that what you are?
    Yet that doesn't make you less humane than the rest of us, given who are the judges. Also would it be behavior or thoughts that would make you inhuman. You say thoughts, but your behavior as far as I've seen doesn't give inhuman. Lack of feeling and empathy, yes. But I'd say it's good that you know it yourself.

    Normal logic goes: Well, I am alive now and I will try to live my life and see what happens with time.

    My logic: I am dead for sure and I will live my life just to see what will happen.
    A different point of view, same outcome.
    My logic: This is completely meningless, yet I strive because I wish to see what'll come or if there could be meaning.
    And there are many other point of views, some more 'normal' than others. That doesn't seem inuhman nor robotic to me.

    What I'm interested in is that you've asked and mentioned the inhuman approach, but is human what you strive to be would like to try out? Or are you simply curious to see the responses?

    Ah, listen to dissonance, he's got more experience.

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