User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 21 to 30 of 39

  1. #21
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    intp
    Posts
    53

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    How do you seperate that from believing in something but not acting on it? In terms of the 4 possibilities between believing and acting, acting but not believing is on par with believing but not acting... I don't see the difference, except that acting is a physical form that is harder to do and generally carries more meaning to a whole lot more people than just oneself.
    I find it extremely difficult to believe in something and not act on it. A situation where I haven't acted on something I truly believed in is not springing to mind. It's effortless to do so and is not a chore by any means. It means more to people when it's genuine, not just something done to appease. To the people who matter, anyway.
    However, it's the reverse for not believing and acting. It's tedious and I see little point in doing it unless I was getting something out of it. That may make me sound selfish, but I dislike the idea of faking...in something serious, anyway (like loving someone I do not or believing in something I do not).

  2. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    145

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Absolutely right. I operate on this principle - it does not exist unless it exists without the words. You are not your labels, you are the sum of your actions. You do not love if you do not show it. You do not have empathy unless you show it. You are not faithful unless you show it. You are nothing but your actions, and I will judge you upon those alone.
    I agree completely!

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by attila_the_hunny View Post
    ...I dislike the idea of faking...in something serious, anyway (like loving someone I do not or believing in something I do not).
    I do feel that way too. I hate pretense. Usually what happens is either I change so now I do believe in what I'm doing (or become committed/love the person), or I have an internal struggle that continues until I have to stop what I am doing.

    (The whole faith thing has often been like that for me, until recently. Among other things.)

    Does that sound familiar at all?

    I would guess it to have something to do with the INTP need to "define things cleanly and accurately" ... and behaving in a different way than one truly feels feels like a lie. (Similarly I also hate "cheering myself up" when I'm in a dark mood, that feels like a lie as well even if I know it's the best thing to do.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #24
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sx
    Posts
    3,467

    Default

    What if you dont get a chance to show it?

    Think about a spiritual sage who retreats to the mountains to focus on his inner virtue.

    Every time he comes down he is prepared to do good. He did good things after every time he went out to his retreat. You were not there to see any of it.

    On the 6th time when he comes down, everybody left town, and therefore he does not have an opportunity to do good deeds. Does this mean that he is no longer good only because he didnt do good things? What he has on the inside does not mean anything at all?

    Now compare the sage who is internally inspired to do good to somebody who just does good deeds in order to look good and does not have good will. Like the Pharisees in the Bible.

    Obviously good people do good things, but if you think you're good only because you do good deeds, you're way off...

    The real good exists internally, we are not capable of seeing it or let alone passing an assessment on that...deeds are only one way goodness manifests itself...so no..we are not in the position to be passing assessments on one's overall level of virtue because the best we can see is the way it appears only on the superficial level (deeds)..this isnt going to give us enough insight.

    Perhaps if we learned to understand one's motives, than we may be in a more appropriate position, but thats a different story, this doesnt apply to making character judgments in conventional scenarios on strangers as you've insinuated there.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  5. #25
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by attila_the_hunny View Post
    I find it extremely difficult to believe in something and not act on it. A situation where I haven't acted on something I truly believed in is not springing to mind. It's effortless to do so and is not a chore by any means. It means more to people when it's genuine, not just something done to appease. To the people who matter, anyway.
    However, it's the reverse for not believing and acting. It's tedious and I see little point in doing it unless I was getting something out of it. That may make me sound selfish, but I dislike the idea of faking...in something serious, anyway (like loving someone I do not or believing in something I do not).
    I'm not sure I can see it that way. The best case is believing and acting, sure... but there are plenty of cases where acting does not involve believing (as you say, appeasing), but there are cases when the actions do not show your belief (say, abuse and love). This becomes extremely true when you talk about ideals - those that love war but won't participate. Those that talk about charity but do not help. Those that talk about rights but don't support them. Those that talk about democracy but don't vote.

    I would equate belief without action as a lie just as much as action without belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yes, that would be a notable difference: Believing in something and not doing it is worthless to everyone, whereas not believing in something but doing it anyway can actually still have positive impact on others, even if it's not benefiting you in the least.

    (Then again, you don't KNOW if it is benefiting you, do you? Perhaps by doing something, you change yourself incrementally. Perhaps. It's a possibility. People are not stagnant, we are all part of the overriding system, so we are impacted by what we choose to do.)
    The real question is if we talk about believing something, sorta, maybe and not acting... Kind of like a weak belief in Christianity and therefore no real drive to walk the path. That is a different scenario than saying you love someone when you hate them... that's more like being an Atheist and trying to walk the Christian path.

    In the first case, you aren't being untrue to yourself and beliefs by acting on your beliefs - in the second, I think you are being untrue to yourself. The main point is that if you claim a belief, that belief is meaningless unless you act in accordance with it... however, any act you take is not meaningless regardless of the belief that drove it. It is slightly asymetrical in preference of the act.

  6. #26
    Senior Member darlets's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    357

    Default

    "Not so. People who doubt can have great faith because faith is something you do, not something you think. In fact, the greater your doubt the more heroic your faith."
    I do believe in Zeus, I do, I do. So delusion is great and the less evidence you have to go on and the more you just have to blindly believe the more "heroic" you are.

    "I learned that it doesn't matter in the least that I be convinced of God's existence. Whether or not God exists is none of my business, really. What do I know of existence? I don't even know how the VCR works."
    Great now we're discouraging thought and accepting ignorance as allowable.
    It's all to hard to think about lets all just give up and listen to the priest.

    "What does matter is whether or not I am faithful. I think faithful is a hell of a good word. It still has some of its original shine. It still calls us to action..."
    So after we're told basing beliefs on no evidence is heroic, thinking is frowned upon and ignorance is O.K lets go forth and have some action. Oh goodie, I can't wait to see the results of this. Please let him mistake a chainsaw for a toothbrush.

    How much longer can we afford, as a species, to accept this as a desirable way to make decisions.

    If George Bush said he consulted his horoscopes and they said to invade Iraq what would you think of him? But his allowed to say he asked God and God spoke back to him.
    "The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time."
    Bertrand Russell

    http://rayofsolar.blogspot.com/
    http://zeropointseven.blogspot.com/

  7. #27
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by darlets View Post
    "Not so. People who doubt can have great faith because faith is something you do, not something you think. In fact, the greater your doubt the more heroic your faith."
    I do believe in Zeus, I do, I do. So delusion is great and the less evidence you have to go on and the more you just have to blindly believe the more "heroic" you are.
    Hmmm. I see what you mean, based on just this excerpt, and how it could be taken the way you suggest...

    I guess I reached a different conclusion about the text because I've read the majority of Gordon's blog entries (written over the course of the last 5 years?) and also have had a similar "spiritual journey" -- so I understand the context of his comments. I know where he has been, where he is at, and where he wishes he was but wasn't. I also am familiar with many of his practical daily life decisions and his personality, based on his narratives. So there's a lot of context of which you wouldn't be aware just from this entry...

    While he speaks in general terms, he really is speaking from the context of being trained for (and believing in) Christian ministry (which involves the specific following of Yahweh and Jesus, hence a very defined moral code that is different than the stories developed around Zeus and the Greek pantheon); and then finding himself challenging his own beliefs and everything he has based his whole life upon.

    The dilemma? He believed in the moral nature and value of Christianity, as a way to live. But he no longer had the practical evidence he needed to support his faith as "true" -- in fact, believing in God seemed to make no practical difference, prayer seemed to have no discernable effect, etc.

    So empirically, he felt he could not believe in his faith. But values-wise, he believes the faith is true.

    "I learned that it doesn't matter in the least that I be convinced of God's existence. Whether or not God exists is none of my business, really. What do I know of existence? I don't even know how the VCR works."
    Great now we're discouraging thought and accepting ignorance as allowable.
    It's all to hard to think about lets all just give up and listen to the priest.
    That really wasn't what he was saying.

    "What does matter is whether or not I am faithful. I think faithful is a hell of a good word. It still has some of its original shine. It still calls us to action..."
    So after we're told basing beliefs on no evidence is heroic, thinking is frowned upon and ignorance is O.K lets go forth and have some action. Oh goodie, I can't wait to see the results of this. Please let him mistake a chainsaw for a toothbrush.
    That really wasn't what he was saying either.

    How much longer can we afford, as a species, to accept this as a desirable way to make decisions.
    Just to note: There's a very large difference between RLP and the mindless Christianity you're attacking. (If it means anything, at the least, RLP is uniformly attacked by the group you're describing -- and the more they fit your stereotype, the more they seem to take issue with him. Lumping him in with those who diametrically oppose his message seems a little silly to me.)

    Sorry that I turned this into a "defend RLP" post, when I did ask for responses and got what I asked for. Just take this as a "things aren't quite how you categorized them" response and review the link/site in the OP if it matters to you to learn more. (If not, no biggie either.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #28
    Senior Member darlets's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    357

    Default

    Jen, to me, this notion that it doesn't matter what I believe only what I do is incorrect.

    Actions do not exist in a vacumn.

    Beliefs lead to Action which lead to outcomes and outcomes feed back (reinforce or change) into our Beliefs.

    Take for example a New Earth Creationist(N.E.C) and an Old Earth Creationist (O.E.C) arguing with a skeptic on Global Warming. The N.E.C and O.E.C can make the exact same argument base on data for the last 6000 years and the skeptic is well and truly justified in dismissing the N.E.C reasoning because the N.E.C themselves dismisses 200,000 years of climatology.

    The may make the N.E.C rethink their views on religion or on the Green House Effect.

    The N.E.C belief affects the outcome and that outcome may affect their beliefs.

    Catholic priest act by discouraging condom use in aids ridden villages but it's the belief that it's better for a human to catch and die from aids than burn in hell is where the act stems from.

    Voting against the cervical cancer vacine is the act, the belief that it's better for women to develop cancer and die than burn in hell is the belief.

    Trying to ban the pill is another example of this.

    It very much matters what you believe because it affects your actions. Beliefs about souls and hell affect peoples actions.

    "What do I know of existence?"
    The author knows a lot more about existence than he would have if he lived 500 years ago, a 1000 and 100,000 and this changes his moral outlook.

    Our technology and our history influences our morals. The pill had a big influence on womens rights and a group of Chrisitans standing up and saying we disagree with slavery despite it being condoned by the bible had a big influence on slavery, firstly in the U.K then in America.

    To dismiss our increasing understanding of our existance and it's influences on our morals is in itself promoting ignorance, we believe this because we believe this.

    For example it's one thing to say the church and state should be seperate, but people need to understand why that is and how it came about and acknowledge the struggling and sacrafice people forth by women and men in the past.

    To say what do I know about existence is a slap in the face to all the painful lessons we've learn along the way to a better understanding of it.

    Surely the knowledge that genetically all the human "races" are practically the same is a piece of knowledge about our existence and it has big affects on our moral outlook.

    "Whether or not God exists is none of my business, really."
    When people are afflicting terrible acts upon others because of their beliefs in God/s it's very much your business.

    Maybe I'm wrong but he seems to be promoting living in a bubble of ignorance to me.
    "The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time."
    Bertrand Russell

    http://rayofsolar.blogspot.com/
    http://zeropointseven.blogspot.com/

  9. #29
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by darlets View Post
    Jen, to me, this notion that it doesn't matter what I believe only what I do is incorrect...

    ...Maybe I'm wrong but he seems to be promoting living in a bubble of ignorance to me.
    I hate to sound like I'm just being obstinate... but did you bother to read anything else he has written, to better put his comments in context of his larger philosophy?

    I'm asking because:
    1. He would agree with the gist of what you said here.
    2. I would agree with the gist of what you said here.

    The gist of what you said here is not what is inaccurate.

    It's the context you're wrapping his comments in that is inaccurate.

    That's all.

    Honestly, if you don't get it or don't want to invest in more reading to understand the context, fine. It's not a big deal, and you're not required to read any more. I'm just telling you that the conclusions you're drawing do not accurately represent what I know of his personal life philosophy.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #30
    Senior Member darlets's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    357

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Honestly, if you don't get it or don't want to invest in more reading to understand the context, fine. It's not a big deal, and you're not required to read any more. I'm just telling you that the conclusions you're drawing do not accurately represent what I know of his personal life philosophy.
    I plead guilty to the first part "I don't get it" but not the second "don't want to invest in more reading to understand the context".

    Can you please give me a few specific examples of his work that explain this broader philosophy because I've read three of his articles and they don't seem too.

    The ones I've read seem to be defining the good that humans do as Religion/Christianity and the bad as human nature.

    "I don't know what to say about this. It's so terribly sad to me that my own faith tradition is so frequently warped and skewed, becoming hurtful to powerless people. I try to remind myself of one of our central doctrines - humanity is screwed up. And everything we get involved with - including religion, maybe especially religion - gets screwed up too.

    Take a look at the article and let me know what you think. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

    This is the sort of thing that authentic Christians around the world should publicly and loudly denounce."

    What exactly does he mean by "authentic Christians"? I doubt the Christians his excluding deem themselves not to be authentic. I could go on, but I think I would just increasingly annoy you which is not my intent. You're a big fan of his work I take it?
    "The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time."
    Bertrand Russell

    http://rayofsolar.blogspot.com/
    http://zeropointseven.blogspot.com/

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 144
    Last Post: 02-19-2017, 10:54 PM
  2. Faith of a Rationalist
    By SolitaryWalker in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 65
    Last Post: 01-09-2013, 09:16 PM
  3. MBTI Faith and the Ideal vs the Real
    By Kalach in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-15-2009, 08:35 PM
  4. Faith vs. Logic
    By Night in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 103
    Last Post: 08-12-2009, 09:54 PM
  5. Survey on faith in America
    By darlets in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 06-22-2007, 03:40 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO