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  1. #31
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maabus1999 View Post
    And I still don't know what you are going to do about increasing wisdom, which is often more important then intellect, when it comes to society as a whole (which I stand that the purpose of education is to improve not only yourself, but society).
    I would be interested in hearing how you would propose to "teach" wisdom to someone.
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  2. #32
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maabus1999 View Post
    This theory still seems like you are trying to teach a computer more then a person, by concentrating so much on logic and reasoning. Being imagination is often illogical, I see this as a detriment to creativity by concentrating only on increasing logic and reasoning skills. It is like explaining the logic behind certain theories in quantum physics i.e. there is none but they can't be proven wrong either.

    And I still don't know what you are going to do about increasing wisdom, which is often more important then intellect, when it comes to society as a whole (which I stand that the purpose of education is to improve not only yourself, but society).
    Define wisdom, as I do not understand what exactly you're talking about.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Maabus1999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I would be interested in hearing how you would propose to "teach" wisdom to someone.
    History and experience. How do you teach experience? You have to create it, and usually involving scenarios involving history. Traveling is one of the better ways from my personal experience as a child. Problem is most education systems don't know how to do it, but I admit it is very hard and have had very few educators know how to do it. Logic and reasoning can definitely increase the speed you can achieve both, but without studying/understanding history or experiencing things, you can not create that knowledge. Now look how a great majority of people seem to have a complete lack of wisdom, even people who are very "intelligent" and "logical", and do stupid mistakes left and right. It is why we constantly are repeating mistakes as a society...

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Define wisdom, as I do not understand what exactly you're talking about.
    See above in a way. Understanding history creates wisdom. Creating experience creates wisdom. Combined with logical reasoning, it will compound itself in an educational environment. Once someone is taught to create "wisdom" by understanding and evaluating history and their experiences correctly (and logic doesn't always apply with experiences), they will be a much stronger asset to society. Since education, in my opinion, is in reality to better yourself AND society, I think this is necessary in order to minimize mistakes that could have been avoided. In a way you avoid situations like what we have now with the world economy which is a crisis of confidence. Plus try to explain some of the stranger anomalies in the current economic situation with someone who has been educated only in logic/philosphy/rhetoric. They would be hard pressed to understand it (just like most PhD economists can not explain easily why the two strongest currencies are the countries with the lowest interest rates. Logically, it makes no sense.) This may be off topic, but is more of an example of how not understanding history or being taught "wisdom" by learning from the past. It is a lost art. Heck, as I talk CNBC International is talking about how no one currently has any sense of "wisdom" on how to react in this market, which they go on to say if they looked at history it would've been easier to stop for what happened. History and the early formation of experience/how to understand it is also very important.

  4. #34
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maabus1999 View Post
    History and experience. How do you teach experience? You have to create it, and usually involving scenarios involving history. Problem is most education systems don't know how to do it, but I admit it is very hard and have had very few educators know how to do it. Logic and reasoning can definitely increase the speed you can achieve both, but without studying/understanding history or experiencing things, you can not create that knowledge. Now look how a great majority of people seem to have a complete lack of wisdom, even people who are very "intelligent" and "logical", and do stupid mistakes left and right. It is why we constantly are repeating mistakes as a society...



    See above in a way. Understanding history creates wisdom. Creating experience creates wisdom. Combined with logical reasoning, it will compound itself in an educational environment.

    Just teach people to think critically, they will seek out their own experiences.

    There are people who falsely believe for themselves to be intelligent but are not and make same mistakes consistently. An intelligent person tends to be reflective and by definition of intelligent, has the capability to understand complex situations. Because he is reflective and intelligent he will reflect on his circumstances and avoid errors as a result of critical analysis of his situation.

    The study of history gives us knowledge of some very general psychological and sociological phenomena, or how people tend to behave as individuals and in groups. This may be a small part of philosophy, which is now known as the following; philosophy of psychology, philosophy of sociology and philosophy of history.



    So, I still do not understand where you're going with this appeal to cultivation of 'wisdom'.

    Moreover, you still have not defined wisdom, you have provided no more than some very general and unconnected ideas.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  5. #35
    Senior Member Maabus1999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Just teach people to think critically, they will seek out their own experiences.
    Ok explain that one in more detail. As an example, some would say that more critical thinkers will avoid risk and therefore miss out on the positive experience and aspect of risk. Understanding the concept of risk, then being taught the wisdom behind it is very important in understanding mistakes, how to avoid them, and when you may need to make them.

    Yeah, I don't fully understand how critical thinking is going to make you want to experience things, and may in fact, make you avoid them...

    Wisdom's definition is "knowledge of what is true or right coupled with just judgment as to action". Again I am saying I find this to be of importance to learning, and not understanding how to make correct judgments make all of your education, in my opinion, worthless. The issue is Wisdom can be subjective, depending on how you look at it its source, and you are approaching this objectively through only logic and reasoning. While it looks great in explaining and writing out an argument, it is impractical and does not work in the real world. However, someone has already mentioned this so I am just repeating a said comment.

    Prove the thesis by experience via application. That is how I look at things. Anything else, is, well, something I don't really care about. My experience just says this will not work, as do others with teaching experience.

  6. #36
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maabus1999 View Post
    Ok explain that one in more detail. As an example, some would say that more critical thinkers will avoid risk and therefore miss out on the positive experience and aspect of risk. Understanding the concept of risk, then being taught the wisdom behind it is very important in understanding mistakes, how to avoid them, and when you may need to make them.

    Yeah, I don't fully understand how critical thinking is going to make you want to experience things, and may in fact, make you avoid them...
    Critical thinking allows you to assess all situations objectively. This will allow you to conduct risk assessment and will enable you to have a clear idea when you want to have new experiences and when you do not.

    Your claim that a critical thinker, or any other kind of a person will tend to do A or B simply states that such a person's psychological dispositions will lead him to behave in a certain way. Or quite simply his instincts will compell him to.

    A critical thinker will be able to avoid this because he will have the liberty of doing what is most rational to do rather than simply what he feels like doing.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  7. #37
    Senior Member Maabus1999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Critical thinking allows you to assess all situations objectively. This will allow you to conduct risk assessment and will enable you to have a clear idea when you want to have new experiences and when you do not.

    Your claim that a critical thinker, or any other kind of a person will tend to do A or B simply states that such a person's psychological dispositions will lead him to behave in a certain way. Or quite simply his instincts will compell him to.

    A critical thinker will be able to avoid this because he will have the liberty of doing what is most rational to do rather than simply what he feels like doing.
    This is reactionary still. You are waiting for the experience to come to you to evaluate. I am saying you need to force experiences upon someone to learn, and a critical thinker who has not had an experience before will make mistakes at times. Not thinking otherwise is a flaw being nothing is perfect.

    From an educational stand point, who will understand the world more? Someone who has traveled and learned, or one who has been stagnant? Who will have more "wisdom" to solve a problem that involves something in the world, if they were equal in your other tenets. That is one practicality of education I think you are missing where someone will develop quiet differently, with one being more superior then the other.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I have 1 question. We have a very clear and a systematic notion of how one's logical reasoning skills could be cultivated. This is because logical reasoning is completely objective.

    Yet we do not have such a clear and a systematic notion with regard to cultivation of imagination. This is because imagination, as a cognitive faculty, is much less clear and objective than logical reasoning. I think this is what you have had in mind when you said that imagination is a relative term.

    There can be no doubt that one's imagination could be improved, but, because it is an amorphous cognitive faculty, and we therefore do not understand how exactly imagination works, we cannot expect to discover a very reliable way to cultivate our imagination.

    Consider the following examples in support of the claim that imagination is amorphous and we are unclear regarding how it functions; if you show a Texan a cowboy hat, he will envisage more images than a man from Alaska. If you show color yellow to a person who regards yellow as their favorite color, they will be inspired to think about color yellow more and therefore will envisage more images than the person who regards yellow as their least favorite color. There may be some very general techniques regarding how imagination could be cultivated, but in many cases, the internal condition of the psyche of the person whose imagination is to be cultivated holds an important role, as we notice person A is often impacted differently from person B. There are many psychological nuances regarding imagination that we are not aware of, nor do we have a reliable way of being aware of simply because imagination is a very amorphous and a subjective cognitive faculty.

    Thus, I stand by my thesis that the purpose of education is to first and foremost cultivate our logical reasoning skills. If we manage to cultivate imagination as well, that shall be a noteworthy bonus, however, we should not except to reach such an objective for reasons mentioned earlier in this post.
    I agree with you that the use of imagination is significantly more person specific.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    It sounds like ygolo is saying that the imagination will be cultivated automatically in the process of teaching people the basic skills (logical, mathematical, literary, etc...). So even if we do not have a systematic way to set out and improve someone's imagination directly, it will nevertheless be the indirect consequence of learning at successively higher levels.
    That was one point I was making. But it goes deeper.

    Representation is a central problem. Before the creation of a digital computer, people could make names for themselves by creating a charting mechanism that would allow someone to see patterns that could not easily be seen otherwise.

    There are large books devoted simply to the cataloging of examples and counterexamples of mathematical concepts, because the representations greatly aid in understanding.

    Reading a book like:
    Amazon.com: Counterexamples in Topology: Lynn Arthur Steen, J. Arthur Seebach: Books
    are meant simply to be read to imagine the examples given as a means to further understand concepts.


    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    That sounds rather plausible, however, my point was that cultivation of imagination should not be part of our educational agenda. Only activities that could be presented in a systematic fashion should be part of our agenda. To promote activities that cannot be systematically presented means to promote activities that we do not have a clear understanding of.

    Cultivation of imagination should be implicit in our agenda for reasons that you mention, but not explicit for the reasons I mentioned in this post.
    I think some explicit development of imagination is important and possible. It is true that it is a more subjective and personal thing.

    However, the work on imagination (like with Conceptual Blockbusting, NLP, meditation practice, and imagining examples in mathematics) is likely to yield great dividends.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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  9. #39
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maabus1999 View Post
    This is reactionary still. You are waiting for the experience to come to you to evaluate. I am saying you need to force experiences upon someone to learn, and a critical thinker who has not had an experience before will make mistakes at times. Not thinking otherwise is a flaw being nothing is perfect.

    From an educational stand point, who will understand the world more? Someone who has traveled and learned, or one who has been stagnant? Who will have more "wisdom" to solve a problem that involves something in the world, if they were equal in your other tenets. That is one practicality of education I think you are missing where someone will develop quiet differently, with one being more superior then the other.
    Keep in mind, here we are dealing with post-graduate students. These are adults and not children. Whether to have experience or not to have experiences is their personal choice. The best we can do is to recommend having experiences as opposed to not having them, and first and foremost equip them with the proper tools to assess such experiences. (Critical Thinking faculties).

    I see your point concerning the merits of having experiences as opposed to not having them, but I cannot imagine how we could incorporate experiences into our curriculum. Can you?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  10. #40
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    Educational progressivism could be a way to combine critical thinking skills and hands-on experience. By teaching students the scientific method and actively showing them how that method can apply to real-world problems, students learn how to think critically about occurrences that happen in their own life.

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