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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    It is pretty clear that the disciplines you mentioned cultivate one's logical reasoning skills, though it is unclear to me how they cultivate one's faculties of imagination.

    It seems plausible to me however, that a person who deals with abstract ideas often or frequently uses his imagination will become slightly more imaginative, but not significantly more. With logical reasoning, this is not so. Even the most illogical of individuals, over time, may learn to reason with competence.
    Imagination comes in various forms. Design Engineering in particular requires holding a very long term focus on the design of something that is yet to exist.

    However, what I meant by the previous comment is the "proper abstraction" is the object of study and practice in all the disciplines I mentioned.

    There are "good" abstractions and "bad" ones. There are measures of complexity of abstraction. There are measures of effectiveness, and accuracy, measures of similiarity, equivelence, subjugation, of various abstractions. There are measures of systematic bias, and various other aspects of abstractions themselves studied in all these various forms of "math modeling."

    In sum, the whole aim of these branches of study are to teach people how to make abstractions. From my experience, these fields are rather successful in this endevour.

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  2. #12
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Imagination comes in various forms. Design Engineering in particular requires holding a very long term focus on the design of something that is yet to exist.

    However, what I meant by the previous comment is the "proper abstraction" is the object of study and practice in all the disciplines I mentioned.

    There are "good" abstractions and "bad" ones. There are measures of complexity of abstraction. There are measures of effectiveness, and accuracy, measures of similiarity, equivelence, subjugation, of various abstractions. There are measures of systematic bias, and various other aspects of abstractions themselves studied in all these various forms of "math modeling."

    In sum, the whole aim of these branches of study are to teach people how to make abstractions. From my experience, these fields are rather successful in this endevour.
    We are back to the earlier problem. This fields teach us how to analyze abstractions, but do not teach us how to imagine them. Or is this not so?

    Clearly, if there is a systematic method to teach people to be more imaginative in a fashion analogous to teaching them to be more logical, I would like to know about it. Imagination is a purely abstract unconscious perception. It could be cultivated through consistent practice, but because the nature of this cognitive faculty is very abstract and amorphous, I have difficulty imagining a systematic fashion to cultivate it.
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  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    We are back to the earlier problem. This fields teach us how to analyze abstractions, but do not teach us how to imagine them. Or is this not so?

    Clearly, if there is a systematic method to teach people to be more imaginative in a fashion analogous to teaching them to be more logical, I would like to know about it. Imagination is a purely abstract unconscious perception. It could be cultivated through consistent practice, but because the nature of this cognitive faculty is very abstract and amorphous, I have difficulty imagining a systematic fashion to cultivate it.
    True. The disciplines do presuppose that one has the basic ability to imagine rather simple things. But they also give ample practice in doing so.

    Diagrams in engineering are direct abstractions, a resistor is symbolized like this, a capacitor like so, a transistor like so, and so on. The equations associated with the elements are learned by route most of the time. Similarly in mechanical and thermal engineering.

    The disiplines do teach how to construct larger abstractions from smaller ones, so in this way a basic ability to imagine a few simple abstractions is honed into an ability imagine very complex abstractions.

    As for the basic ability to imagine very simple things...
    There are "exercises" that help in this regard...
    Meditation, prayer, day-dreaming, vivid remembering, art, crafts, music, dance, sports, acting, writing, and games all build the basic ability to imagine through practice.

    As for teaching someone who cannot imagine anything? I don't know. I am not sure such a person exists.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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  4. #14
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    True. The disciplines do presuppose that one has the basic ability to imagine rather simple things. But they also give ample practice in doing so.

    Diagrams in engineering are direct abstractions, a resistor is symbolized like this, a capacitor like so, a transistor like so, and so on. The equations associated with the elements are learned by route most of the time. Similarly in mechanical and thermal engineering.

    The disiplines do teach how to construct larger abstractions from smaller ones, so in this way a basic ability to imagine a few simple abstractions is honed into an ability imagine very complex abstractions.

    As for the basic ability to imagine very simple things...
    There are "exercises" that help in this regard...
    Meditation, prayer, day-dreaming, vivid remembering, art, crafts, music, dance, sports, acting, writing, and games all build the basic ability to imagine through practice.

    As for teaching someone who cannot imagine anything? I don't know. I am not sure such a person exists.
    Intellectual disciplines you mentioned presuppose one's ability to imagine not only the most basic things, but highly complex things. Very few people have the ability to imagine such things to a satisfactory degree and that is why many complex ideas are off limits for them.

    It seems to be the case that practicing imagining things can enhance one's imagination slightly, not significantly however. Do you wish to argue that it is possible to enhance one's imagination significantly? For instance, could a person who was at once very unimaginative become a visionary?
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Maabus1999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Axiom: The ultimate end to all education is emendation of the intellect.

    Intellect: Ability to solve complex problems as quickly and accurately as possible.

    Requirements: Abstract perception and logical reasoning skills. The former cannot be taught. One either is able to generate abstract perceptions or is not. One is either imaginative or not imaginative. However, one's logical reasoning skills could be cultivated in a very systematic fashion.

    Role of education in emendation of the intellect: Furnishing of logical reasoning skills.

    How is this to be done?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Three components of education: 1. Logic/Mathematics. 2. Philosophy. 3.Rhetoric

    Logic teaches us the patterns of reasoning and sharpens our reasoning skills directly. Philosophy teaches us to apply these skills to solving all problems that we could envisage. Rhetoric teaches us to communicate our ideas to others and therefore allows for us to assist on another in our task to cultivate our reasoning skills.
    This is the educational peak of certain personality types, not society as a whole. Unless you make philosophy really, really broad...

    And where is creativity? Most "geniuses" came across their ideas by creative imaginations, not spending all day thinking up things through math equations (and I love math btw...).

    Also your environment plays a huge factor on your education. Think of it as a person has a potential, but the environment is what nurtures that potential.

    Also, in what way are you applying education to society? This is more scholarly of a definition then vocational. Please explain to me how this form of education will help you become a mechanic or some other advanced skill based job where education is skill based and not scholarly.

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    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maabus1999 View Post
    This is the educational peak of certain personality types, not society as a whole. Unless you make philosophy really, really broad...

    And where is creativity? Most "geniuses" came across their ideas by creative imaginations, not spending all day thinking up things through math equations (and I love math btw...).

    Also your environment plays a huge factor on your education. Think of it as a person has a potential, but the environment is what nurtures that potential.

    Also, in what way are you applying education to society? This is more scholarly of a definition then vocational. Please explain to me how this form of education will help you become a mechanic or some other advanced skill based job where education is skill based and not scholarly.

    All the answers to your questions may be found in the last 3 of my posts. Pay close attention to post 10.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maabus1999 View Post
    Also, in what way are you applying education to society? This is more scholarly of a definition then vocational. Please explain to me how this form of education will help you become a mechanic or some other advanced skill based job where education is skill based and not scholarly.
    I don't understand this question. The model of education presented in the OP is explicitly scholarly. Your question, therefore, is equivalent to asking a technical school (say, a heating and cooling training program) why they don't cover Plato in the curriculum. It's absurd.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Maabus1999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I don't understand this question. The model of education presented in the OP is explicitly scholarly. Your question, therefore, is equivalent to asking a technical school (say, a heating and cooling training program) why they don't cover Plato in the curriculum. It's absurd.
    How it reads is talking just about tenets of education and intellect. I was just asking about other forms of education and their value. And how he is implying all education should be based around that, and adds more later, his OP has some flaws on an applicable scale, in my opinion. He later clarifies. However, being he says "all" education, yet you think he is explicitly saying scholarly is "absurd"...

  9. #19
    Senior Member Maabus1999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    All the answers to your questions may be found in the last 3 of my posts. Pay close attention to post 10.
    Please don't take this the wrong way but I really don't have time to read more then the first post, think about it, respond, and move on to something else. Just what I do unless something appears to have resounding purpose to read and discuss. I will go read your post 10.

  10. #20
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maabus1999 View Post
    How it reads is talking just about tenets of education and intellect. I was just asking about other forms of education and their value.
    Not relevant to this inquiry.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

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