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  1. #1
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    Default Problems with Original Sin (Genesis)

    3: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
    4: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
    5: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
    6: And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
    Problem 1 (minor): God lied, which makes it okay for us to lie if we are adhering to the qualities of God which are by definition Good. Another minor problem is that God tries to prevent Adam and Eve from obtaining knowledge whilst Satan encourages them to attain it, showing that knowledge is an evil thing that should be avoided.

    Problem 2 (major): Original sin had not been committed by Adam and Eve because they did not have the knowledge of good and evil in the first place. If knowledge of good and evil (which derives from the tree of knowledge) is what provides one with the concept of morality, and morality is strictly adhering to the 'good' side, while sin is indulging into the 'bad' side, what fault had they committed by eating from the tree which they knew not was a 'bad' thing (only after eating from the tree would they know that the action was a sin, they had no knowledge of it beforehand)? This is a big problem, because it implies that God created humans with sin in the first place, they did not bring it upon themselves through free will (ignoring the fact that the omnipotent God would have already known that Eve would eat from the tree).

    Thoughts, opinions?

  2. #2
    Arcesso pulli gingerios! Eldanen's Avatar
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    Internal inconsistency makes the baby Jesus cry. Problem #2 is in my knowledge one of the most difficult for Christians to reconcile. You can't hold someone who isn't knowledgeable responsible for knowledge. In actuality, the creation story you find in the Bible is an amalgamation of two earlier creation myths from the Sumerians.

    Universalists interpret this part of the Bible literally and say that it was impossible that man wouldn't sin, and see any other interpretation as a logical fallacy. They also believe that man had to sin so that he could learn, i.e. God was teaching man a lesson he needed to know, through death, suffering, sin, etc. This is supposedly so that man would know that good is better than evil. The universalists however, contrary to the majority of those in the Christian faith, disbelieve in the idea of an eternal hell, or that a hell exists at all. Lastly, they also don't believe in the concept of free will. That is: you'll be saved, cleansed, washed, purged, whether you want to or not.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    I've always interpreted the story about forbidden knowledge to mean that sometimes people aren't ready to handle the knowledge that they attain and it creates problems.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldanen View Post
    Universalists interpret this part of the Bible literally and say that it was impossible that man wouldn't sin, and see any other interpretation as a logical fallacy.
    Which shows that God is malicious for creating sinful beings and punishing them for the traits which he had created them with.

    They also believe that man had to sin so that he could learn, i.e. God was teaching man a lesson he needed to know, through death, suffering, sin, etc.
    "Here Billy, put your hand on the stove"
    *Billy puts his hand on the stove and screams in pain*
    "See how bad that is Billy? It would be smart to not do that huh?"



    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I've always interpreted the story about forbidden knowledge to mean that sometimes people aren't ready to handle the knowledge that they attain and it creates problems.
    I can see that, but there is a missing element in that interpretation: Punishment. Not only were they not ready for the knowledge and problems would ensue from that, but in gaining it the rest of their offspring, and their offspring's offspring, etc, would be born in sin, which if uncleansed would lead them to eternal hellfire. Pretty severe if you ask me..

  5. #5
    Arcesso pulli gingerios! Eldanen's Avatar
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    I wonder why there aren't any detractors replying >_>...

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    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post


    I can see that, but there is a missing element in that interpretation: Punishment. Not only were they not ready for the knowledge and problems would ensue from that, but in gaining it the rest of their offspring, and their offspring's offspring, etc, would be born in sin, which if uncleansed would lead them to eternal hellfire. Pretty severe if you ask me..

    Well, I'm not Christian but taking God out of the equation doesn't destroy the self-created "punishment" of cause and effect. Bible's full of good advice for living.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  7. #7
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Well, I'm not Christian but taking God out of the equation doesn't destroy the self-created "punishment" of cause and effect. Bible's full of good advice for living.
    Oh, I know. Especially that bit about not boiling a young goat in its mothers milk. I always keep that one in my back pocket.
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  8. #8
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I agree with Anja. Taking the story in a less literal approach, I feel the "dying" God mentions in #1 refers to that of the innocense that comes with ignorance. They will never again be able to be that person they were again.. hence, that side of them 'dying'.

    The serpent feeds off of the woman's desires and twists the words into good thing. Surely, she shall not 'die' in the literal sense, so he isn't lying to her so he can say it in confidence. Also, she shall gain the knowledge--he just does not advertise all the consequences as well. The ignorance of her fueled by her love for her God made her want to be closer, and thus instead of looking to her God for answers she acts on her own, which could lead to bad things... We all know the worst things are done with the best intentions. Ignorance is never an excuse.

    I feel it was a necessary sin. God, in the story, knew it would happen. He would have never made the tree if he did not want his creations corrupt. He wanted to see them fall, and through that fall, gain the slow and beautiful process of living the life of free will.

    To reply to the billy and stove thing. Very few kids learn things the easy way. I can only imagine the scale of that humans to Gods.
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    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I feel it was a necessary sin. God, in the story, knew it would happen. He would have never made the tree if he did not want his creations corrupt. He wanted to see them fall, and through that fall, gain the slow and beautiful process of living the life of free will.
    Ehm, so are you saying that they had no free will before the fall?
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  10. #10
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Ehm, so are you saying that they had no free will before the fall?
    The only way to fall would be to have the free will enough to do so. If they had no free will, there would be no fall in the first place. Had they simply decided that they'd go ask Daddy first, so to speak, we'd still be in the Garden. Children don't like to do what they're told, God created them that way from the beginning.. God's children, for him, would naturally rebel for the most part if given the opportunity to do so. Opportunity, in the beginning, had to be created just as everything else. After that, reproduction takes over.

    Knowledge, though, I believe is like opening doors. The more doors you open, the more you know and the more free reign you have over your own life... it is my belief that knowledge creates more free will. How you use what you have is up to you.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

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