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  1. #11
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Oh, I know. Especially that bit about not boiling a young goat in its mothers milk. I always keep that one in my back pocket.


    To some peope this IS vitally important! I can tell you're not Jewish from this post: this has been interpreted to mean that all meat and dairy products should consumed separately from one another and is one of the core precepts of Kashrut (Jewish dietary laws). Some orthodox Jews even use different utensils and wait a minimum period (I believe four hours) before the two food groups are allowed to mix in their stomachs. So now you know. And I get to use an emoticon that I thought I'd never get the chance to, which is of course my real excuse


  2. #12
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Blind faith, and steadfast allegiance to the written word of God, i.e. the Bible, and to God himself is what the Bible and God, via the men who wrote it advocate, interestingly enough.

    The acquisition of knowledge is both empowering and painful at times, and ignorance can be blissful, yes, but it also necessarily renders one powerless in all the areas in which they are ignorant, hence relegating them to submissive more vulnerable positions where they will more than likely be manipulated by people who know things or who pretend to know things that the ignorant person does not know, him or herself.

    When Eve decided to dissent, to question, to falter her full allegiance to god, and to listen to what the snake had to say, she and Adam lost their innocence and their perfect little (boring) paradise.

    And heaven is the paradise that one can achieve and receive if they reverse the sins that their biblical ancestors committed.

    My two cents:

    When someone lacks a sense of self, then someone, or some cult, religion or institution will fill that void with a false "self", a false "self" that whoever happens to sell/offer it, incidentally stands to gain from.

    Question everything, including authority and yourself.

    The more you question, the more you seek, the more you will find.

    The bible and religion are tools used for those who simply want answers.

    Science, philosophy, exploration of any kind are for those who seek temporary solutions in order to fuel ultimate questions.
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  3. #13
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Some pertinent Eric Hoffer quotes.

    - It is startling to realize how much unbelief is necessary to make belief possible. What we know as blind faith is sustained by innumerable unbeliefs.

    - It is obvious, therefore, that in order to be effective a doctrine must not be understood, but has rather to be believed in.

    - To be in possession of an absolute truth is to have a net of familiarity spread over the whole of eternity. There are no surprises and no unknowns. All questions have already been answered, all decisions made, all eventualities foreseen. The true believer is without wonder and hesitation.

    - People whose lives are barren and insecure seem to show a greater willingness to obey than people who are self-sufficient and self-confident
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    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

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  4. #14
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    BTW, I made a post on annother thread earlier which appears relevant to this debate. I wrote it mainly to tease a certain Victor, but I was nonetheless partially making a serious point which I do believe has validity, so I'll quote the most relevant parts here (apologies for the Victoresque style and the language):

    The story of Genesis is by no means a literal depiction of creation, but a metaphorical one...

    And the story of Adam and Eve is the story of how Man's intellectual curiosity (let us not be politically correct here) led to his downfall.

    For who ate of the forbidden fruit gained knowledge of good and evil, and became ashamed of themselves, seeing for the first time what potential was inside them.

    And when Adam and Eve clothed their nekkidness, they were masking not only their physical bodies from the piercing sight of others, but their pure souls from the piercing gaze of the judgemental human intellect.

    And the Fall was not only a fall from a primeval state of bliss, but a fall into the material world, and a state of bondage and thralldom.

    And this thralldom is principally unto our own intellects, which create material demands that must be satisfied, and distance us from being free to simply experience what is...

    For the desire to know oneself is good, but the use of the false tools created by the perverted intellect of Man to achieve this, is Bad.
    Does this make sense? Any comments? I expect I can make the point in more everyday language if that would help, but it seemed ready-made already, so I thought I'd use it directly!

  5. #15
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    - It is startling to realize how much unbelief is necessary to make belief possible. What we know as blind faith is sustained by innumerable unbeliefs.
    Good quotes, this one is my favorite.

  6. #16
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    Problem 1 (minor): God lied, which makes it okay for us to lie if we are adhering to the qualities of God which are by definition Good. Another minor problem is that God tries to prevent Adam and Eve from obtaining knowledge whilst Satan encourages them to attain it, showing that knowledge is an evil thing that should be avoided.

    Problem 2 (major): Original sin had not been committed by Adam and Eve because they did not have the knowledge of good and evil in the first place. If knowledge of good and evil (which derives from the tree of knowledge) is what provides one with the concept of morality, and morality is strictly adhering to the 'good' side, while sin is indulging into the 'bad' side, what fault had they committed by eating from the tree which they knew not was a 'bad' thing (only after eating from the tree would they know that the action was a sin, they had no knowledge of it beforehand)? This is a big problem, because it implies that God created humans with sin in the first place, they did not bring it upon themselves through free will (ignoring the fact that the omnipotent God would have already known that Eve would eat from the tree).

    Thoughts, opinions?
    1) I'm not sure what lie you are referring to. They ate the fruit and then they died (eventually). There was also a tree of life, so implication is that if they didn't eat from the first tree, then they'd live forever.

    2a) Sin in the Bible is defined as "transgression of the law" ("the law" being the rules given from God). In Genesis 2-3 there is only one law that we know of and that is to not eat the fruit. Since they ate the fruit, then they sinned.

    2b) I think people are using a modern understanding of "knowledge" rather than an ancient one. Remember in older translations the Bible uses language like "Adam knew Eve". This doesn't mean that he knows her as a person. It means they had sex. The term for knowledge here is experiencial. When it says they will "know" good and evil, it means that they will experience it.
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  7. #17
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    Problem 1 (minor): God lied, which makes it okay for us to lie if we are adhering to the qualities of God which are by definition Good.
    According to the tradition, God did not lie (and this seems a reasonable interpretation): They died both spiritually and instigated the process of decay/mortality entering the world, which leads eventually to physical death.

    Another minor problem is that God tries to prevent Adam and Eve from obtaining knowledge whilst Satan encourages them to attain it, showing that knowledge is an evil thing that should be avoided.
    That's only a minor problem... because it's based on your assumption that Satan was morally right and God was not.

    Look at it this way: If you already have the truth, then more knowledge is not needed, and in fact knowledge can only tempt you, confuse you, and lead you AWAY from the 100% spiritual peak you've already attained.

    For INTPs and others who automatically start with knowledge (rather than authority) as a basis for moral decision making, this seems wrong.

    Problem 2 (major): Original sin had not been committed by Adam and Eve because they did not have the knowledge of good and evil in the first place. If knowledge of good and evil (which derives from the tree of knowledge) is what provides one with the concept of morality, and morality is strictly adhering to the 'good' side, while sin is indulging into the 'bad' side, what fault had they committed by eating from the tree which they knew not was a 'bad' thing (only after eating from the tree would they know that the action was a sin, they had no knowledge of it beforehand)? This is a big problem, because it implies that God created humans with sin in the first place, they did not bring it upon themselves through free will (ignoring the fact that the omnipotent God would have already known that Eve would eat from the tree).
    I haven't read the other responses yet, due to time constraints; but this has always been a flaw to me as well and why I see the story as allegorical, as a way to "explain" the bad choices of humanity, rather than something literal. (Mythical stories always have "flaws" like this if you try to analyze them in the wrong way and not just focus on what need they were serving in the community.) The cause/effect process here in the story is circular and "chicken/egg" like, not linear; it doesn't follow; they already had the capacity to sin.

    But I suppose it would be approached like this in the theology: Adam and Eve had at the ability to sin inherently but hadn't yet sinned and thus were still pure; ability to sin is not the same as actually sinning; once they chose to sin, then they were no longer pure and sin entered the world.

    Another approach is to say that, while they had the ability to rebel (and did), they did not have knowledge of sin in the sense of a moral external checklist, it was much more intrinsic and organic than that. Once the Tree incident happened, morality became codified and thus detached from living in the moment. People could rebel against the moral statute, rather than it being this attraction/repulsion directly to God.

    To put it another way, if you ran across a notorious rapist, you would probably feel some sense of repulsion... because you'd see his actions as evil. This response is intrinsic, not calculated; you don't think, usually, "This man is a rapist; rape is wrong; therefore I must despise him." You instead feel repulsed first, then figure out why later.

    However, the Fall allowed people to codify morality so now it COULD become less of a repulsion of the rapist and now more an accessing of the rule list -- "Rape is wrong; therefore I must despise rape." There is a detachment from the internal response. People are separated from their own internal moral core. Their relationship with God is now also legislated, not internalized.

    That is another way to look at it.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Such interesting and thoughtful responses here. I hadn't planned to post here further as I find any debate which shows disrespect to the other side's position tiresome and useless. Proselytizers for one true God are tiresome. And the flip side of the coin, those who tell me what I shouldn't believe, are equally so.

    But since I see here that some are trying to integrate the OP's views into a respectful discussion, I'm back.

    As I was reading before bed last night I found this quote by Richard W. Wetherill in "The Smithsonian."

    "There is a natural law that determines the resuts of people's behavior that people can make - despite all beliefs to the contrary.

    Those choices are:

    1. Conform to all the natural laws provided by whoever or whatever created natural laws.

    2. Disobey any natural law and face failure, injury or death."

    Wow. That's what I was trying to say.

    As far as discounting the religious text of the Bible, with its ages of collective human wisdom illustrated in story, for one apparently irrelevant statement, it seems to be common mistake.

    I'm glad to see the questioning in process. That's a real plus.

    Edit: Dualism is, to me, an error.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  9. #19
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    1) I'm not sure what lie you are referring to. They ate the fruit and then they died (eventually). There was also a tree of life, so implication is that if they didn't eat from the first tree, then they'd live forever.

    2a) Sin in the Bible is defined as "transgression of the law" ("the law" being the rules given from God). In Genesis 2-3 there is only one law that we know of and that is to not eat the fruit. Since they ate the fruit, then they sinned.

    2b) I think people are using a modern understanding of "knowledge" rather than an ancient one. Remember in older translations the Bible uses language like "Adam knew Eve". This doesn't mean that he knows her as a person. It means they had sex. The term for knowledge here is experiencial. When it says they will "know" good and evil, it means that they will experience it.
    This was an interesting response. I figured their way of talking in the bible is different from modern day speaking, but it seemed to not occur to me that "know" would mean something slightly different. Thanks for posting.

    As for CC.. I got a biiit lost reading your response, so I'm going to ask you to put in simpler words for my poor little mind
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  10. #20
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    I have a strong dislike of 'original sin' because it is actually, in my opinion, against Jesus' teachings. The ecclesiastical powers in nearly all of the main Christian denominations try to use it to control and manipulate the masses. The concept of the doctrine of 'original sin' is nothing more than a spurious idea invented by an African demagogue called Aurelius Augustinus. Not only did Jesus not indoctrinate 'original sin' in his teachings, it is not even part of Jewish teachings which of course Christianity is based on.

    Seriously, I don't know about everyone else, but I honestly and hypothetically believe if I was around when Jesus was and I went up to him and asked him nicely to cure me as I were a terminally ill dinosaur man, he would not have refused to help me until I proved how sorry I am because of Adam and Eve's intrusion and larceny of his apple's flipping two thousand years ago; Does this or does this not clearly contradict Jesus' fundamental teaching of 'love and tolerance'? I don't remember those stories, feel free to remind me, about Jesus being such a bastardy person?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.

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