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Thread: Is MBTI a Cult?

  1. #71
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Victor, if you can show me something which is purely objective then perhaps the MBTI is flawed in the manner in which you state. If not then aren't all things based upon belief and subscription of some kind? How is it that this belief is so much worse than all the others?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #72
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I was invited to join MBTI Central by Geoff after he had read my posts on the site called, "Gifted and Talented Talk".

    Geoff told us that MBTI Central was well run and tolerant. And it is.

    But having joined MBTI Central, I then began to research MBTI and its history.

    And of course I thought that the members of MBTI Central would be vitally interested in the history of MBTI itself. But I was wrong.

    Almost all the members are vitally interested in maintaining the reputation of MBTI. And they see any discussion of the history of MBTI as an attack on the reputation of MBTI.

    But even more important most members identify with MBTI in exactly the same way any member identifies with any cult. And so naturally they feel any critique of the cult is a personal attack on them and their integrity.

    I must admit I find this intellectually disorienting - and I can't quite believe it is taking place in front of my eyes.

    I suspect I am naive.

    On the other hand, I enjoy posting here. And I think the group interactions are important.

    The only price I pay for my enjoyment is cognitive dissonance.

    And I know that cognitive dissonance is a sign I am learning something.

    But so far, I don't know what it is.
    If you were not kidding and actually think MBTI is a cult, then I have to conclude that you are just amusing yourself with a conspiracy theory-like discussion.

    cult
    n.

      1. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
      2. The followers of such a religion or sect.

    1. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
    2. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
    3. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.

      1. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
      2. The object of such devotion.

    4. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.


    Definition #6 is the only way the word "cult" could possibly apply here.
    And in that case, it's not worth calling it a cult at all.

    MBTI is a tool for understanding people, reducing conflict and fostering understanding.

  3. #73
    Just a statistic rhinosaur's Avatar
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    INTJMom is a cult of personality.

  4. #74
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Both are pseudo science - the Zodiac is pseudo astronomy and MBTI is pseudo psychology.
    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Both the Zodiac and MBTI are defences against our unconscious.
    First it's a cult, now it's pseudo-science? Stop being so emotive and try being rational.

    It's a theory. Like all theories, it will live or die by its utility in the real world. It is a useful model for understanding some aspects of normal human behaviour, based upon observation, no more, no less. It doesn't offer prophecy, it doesn't prescribe a way of life. It doesn't give us the answers, just a framework to hang ideas upon. At worst it fosters segregation, elitism, prejudice - but only in those with a pre-existing propensity - such was not the intention of its founders.

    What people are looking for is self-knowledge. How is MBTI a defence against the unconscious? And if MBTI has no merit, why only argue against self-testing - surely all such testing is invalid? Try to be more disciplined in your attack.

    Your critique of Jung has no value. Whilst he might have inspired MBTI, his writing clearly states that he was not in favour of such an instrument. Besides which, typologies have existed since the time of the ancient Greeks, at least. Classification/categorization is the beginning of scientific knowledge, it is the beginning of all knowledge. It is how our minds work, how we make sense of the world. Are you saying the Aristotelian approach is unscientific?

    You seem to imply that typologies such as MBTI are dangerous in some way. Can you expand on your reasons/give examples of how this might be the case?

    FYI, there is a reasonable (though flawed) critique of MBTI here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #75
    Member Cameigons's Avatar
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    bluemonday said it all! Please Victor give us a proper reply there..


    I'm not sure you can call MBTI pseudoscience since we are all(or should be all) conscious that it's not scientifically proved, and pseudoscience is something that try to pass itself as such.

    Sorry but, it seems to me you have acquired your opinions from someone you consider wise/versed and are repeating them here... but you lack the fundaments to defend those opinions so you just keep repeating the outlines over and over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I would suggest you ask a Sociologist with a doctorate. And I would expect they would tell you it is a popular world wide cult with a guru and followers.
    I would suggest you to actually study psychology and sociology, noone owns the truth just because they've got a diploma.
    Sociology and psychology are not monolithic blocks of knowledge where all its integrative theories agree with one another or complement each other and there exist only incontestable truths which everyone inside the field accept. Doesn't quite work that way.

    Philosophically speaking, science is also a "creed" Victor. It is the best damn creed we have, superior to all others IMO, but still a creed.
    I'm not bullshitting you, you can find expositions about that on Carl Sagan or Karl Popper books.
    Another thing, you must know that the Scientific Method itself is constant subject of research and improvement.
    Also just because something doesn't fit within the realms of science today doesn't mean it couldn't in the future(but let's not get crazy here ), and also doesn't mean it's not true(in a broad sense).

    And I'm not saying all this as someone attacking science, I'm someone who loves it actually, with scientific education and hoping to get a decent job in research soon :P Science is my religion..



    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    You must know that to apply a personality test to oneself will not give valid results.

    And for an untrained and unqualified person to give a personality test to another will give invalid results.

    And to apply a personality test to someone you don't know is absurd.

    So I must ask why is a personality test being applied in this way across the world?
    Why do you believe that to be an unquestionable truth applicable to all cases in the whole known universe?
    What are valid results? Why the underlying theory of validation is acceptable?
    Just rhetorical questions.

    Part of the answer lies in its history. And part of the answer lies in a social movement.

    Of course personality tests do have their uses. But it is vital to know their limitations otherwise they become absurd or articles of belief in a world wide cult.
    Are you sure MBTI has no limitations? How can you be sure of that, since it's clear to us you're knowledge on MBTI is still superficial.

    Also personality tests need to be designed by University trained psychometricians and administered in a professional setting.
    Why?

    I'm not questioning you because I necessarily disagree with you, I'm questioning you because you, the brave crusader against pseudosciences and new-age cults who can only be a follower of science, seem to defend stuff blindly just because it is labeled as scientific knowledge or because someone with a PhD told you so(without demonstration).


    I'm very sorry if I'm completely wrong on my assumptions about you, everyone makes mistakes :p

  6. #76
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default In-i

    Juliette Binoche and Akram Khan are engaged in a strangely flawed medium.

    Just as we are engaged in this strangely flawed medium where we are using an electronic medium for text.

    And Juliette and Akram are combining acting and dance together. Juliette is an actress learning to dance and Akram is a dancer learning to act - they are teaching each other. And before long we will be able to see them together - even in Oz.

    Dance speaks in a different way and words often destroy the fragile world dance can build. Words engage a different part of our brain where we strive for meaning and understanding in a literal way. The way we experience dance is more related to music - it's emotive and creates a mood.

    And words and dance can speak to each other. And their conversation is extraordinary for they are mutually inhibitory.

    At the level of personality they inhibit each other - the life of one means the death of the other.

    It's a matter of life or death.

    So in order to survive - in order to thrive - they need to move beyond the level of personality.

    And this is what Juliette Binoche and Akram Khan do in their performance of, "In-i".

    And this is what we can do.
    Likes elodia liked this post

  7. #77
    Member Cameigons's Avatar
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    Ok, I loved that, you won me over.

  8. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes, it is a world wide cult. It is even used at my Catholic University.

    I have noticed it is very popular with rebellious nuns who can't quite bring themselves to abandon Catholicism, but smuggle MBTI and the New Age in the back door.

    You may be surprised how many New Age workshops are conducted at my Catholic University.

    And I can tell you there are no workshops on doubt and dissent. And skeptical inquiry is unknown.

    My University has been dumbed down by the New Age and is really no more than a theological college.

    It seems people hate learning for the same reason they hate exercise - so we become obese and dumb.
    I can see a conflict of interest here. Is your argument against cults one of humanity or religion?

    Also what sort of psychology do you learn at your Catholic University and is it one of the more recognised universities for psychology world wide?
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  9. #79
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    I didn't know this thread was created with my old post in mind. Wow.

  10. #80
    Member Ezion's Avatar
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    It sounds like Victor is against using the MBTI in much the same way that religion can be used (as a tool to put people into boxes).

    However, one of the generally accepted premises of the MBTI theory is that it should not be used to put people into boxes. It can have great descriptive power, and the types can correspond with a general "canvas" your personality is painted upon, but ultimately the MBTI theory and its followers accept that it, like any theory, is flawed and will never be 100% accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Also personality tests need to be designed by University trained psychometricians and administered in a professional setting.
    This sounds absurd in every meaning I try to derive from it. Please elaborate on this.

    Also, Victor seems to have a habit of avoiding arguments and spouting off almost relevant subjective expressions. It is important to note, that, should you be attempting to convince anyone of the legitimacy of your views, actual illustration and logical arguments are required. We cannot peek inside of your head to determine the data you have absorbed that leads you to your conclusions.

    (I realize that there is a high probability Victor is a troll. But what use are trolls if you don't poke them ever so often?)
    Last edited by Ezion; 12-11-2008 at 07:20 PM.
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