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is it possible to be a peaceful muslim?

Il Morto Qui Parla

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I don't buy the polygamy explanation.

1. Polygyny existed in Islam since the very beginning, ditto for the story of 72 virgins. So how come that the Islamic world survived until a decade or two ago without suicide bombers?

2. Polygyny in contemporary Islamic world is certainly not the prevailing mode. Among the middle classes it is relatively rare, yet many suicide bombers come from middle class families.

3. Suicide as a sex-substitute? Where are the exploding Catholic priests? Vans with gas cylinders driven by Carmelite nuns? Buddhist monks with box-cutters boarding airplanes?

The New testiment was written within a stable empire with a legal system, its mesasge is simple you disobey the "Laws" you get punished, you obey the laws you get rewarded. There's a carrot and there's a stick. Like most religions it reinforces the culture it involves in. The Sumerian and Babalyon religions are good examples of this.

The Quran was written in an unstable environment the was crying out for a uniting reason to go forth and conquer with. (Christianity had the Romans do the conquering and set up a legal system and framework for them).

You'll find the old Testment alot more conquest driven because it was written when the babylonians freed the jewish slave and they returned to their homelands to find them occupied.

The religions that are successful are the ones that can infect the best warriors of the time.

The world has alot to thank the Ancient Greek and Roman cultures for. The Roman Republic existed for 500 years and the western roman empire for another 500. Thankfully the Christian religion only influenced the last 150 years of it. One of the Romans strenghs was their secular view on society, acceptance of multiple belief systems and their use and development of technology/science.

Oh, this is just a cool map thingy from wikipedia
religious map

I think the point about the Old Testament perhaps misses the point slightly, because ultimately a christian tries to follow the example of christ, and a muslim tries to follow the example of Mohammed. and they are very different examples. It's not simply that they were born at different times, the Christ of mythology was a peaceful man, whilst Mohammed was a military leader. Regardless of why this came to be, my point is that the role models they present for us here in the 21st century are very different ones. One could argue I suppose that Christ maybe never explicitly said that "in Mohammed's position" you shouldn't behave as Mohammed did, and that Mohammed perhaps never explicitly said that ideally one should not be as peaceful as Christ, but I'm not really sure that religious followers reads texts with the frame of mind that the prophets or the son of God were simply responding to chosen situations, rather than God put those people on earth at that time to set a timeless example of human conduct; so the fact that the Islamic faith holds that man at that particualr time to be its height of human perfection on earth is the problem itself.
 

Totenkindly

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3. Suicide as a sex-substitute? Where are the exploding Catholic priests? Vans with gas cylinders driven by Carmelite nuns? Buddhist monks with box-cutters boarding airplanes?

Well, it's the combination that were discussing, not the separate elements.

Your analogy is like trying to say gasoline isn't combustible because on its own it doesn't blow up.

You need the full combination of elements (gas, oxygen, a container to make the force explosive, a match, etc.)

1. Polygyny existed in Islam since the very beginning, ditto for the story of 72 virgins. So how come that the Islamic world survived until a decade or two ago without suicide bombers?

Did we have the technology to create suicide bombers five centuries ago?

I think the point about the Old Testament perhaps misses the point slightly, because ultimately a christian tries to follow the example of christ, and a muslim tries to follow the example of Mohammed. and they are very different examples.

Do Christians really just follow the example of Christ?

The reason that the evangelicals and fundamentalists cause so many problems is that, despite claiming they are just "following Christ," they use the entire Bible to create a way to live. The Old Testament really is given a great deal of weight in regards to how to live, aside from the fact they don't physically stone people as per the Law. But in terms of morality and what they consider right/wrong, much of the current day doctrine is taken from sources other than Christ.

(Jesus never discussed homosexuality. Jesus never discussed abortion. Jesus never talked about running a "just war." Jesus was not looking for military might to solve the world's problems. And so forth.)

TOday's Christians claim to just be following Jesus, but the organizational political belief structure is really anchored in things drawn from all over the Bible. Because they view it as a singular document, rather than as an evolving one.

All that having been said, I think the core essence of each prophet is different, so it can lead to different attitudes and "tones" of faith such as you describe.
 

Il Morto Qui Parla

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Jenniffer

Christians most certainly don't always follow the example of Christ. However, the core of their belief is that they should follow his teachings, surely? For a christian to be peaceful, he has to follow Christ's example. For a Muslim to be peaceful, he must go against Mohammed's example. I see a clear differentiator there.
 

Totenkindly

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Jennifer

Christians most certainly don't always follow the example of Christ. However, the core of their belief is that they should follow his teachings, surely? For a christian to be peaceful, he has to follow Christ's example. For a Muslim to be peaceful, he must go against Mohammed's example. I see a clear differentiator there.

Idealistically, yes.

Realistically, just look around you. It's not how the faith is actually practiced.

Are we discussing intrinsic differences in Messiah figures, or are we discussing how the more prominent Christians actually practice and intellectualize their morality/faith?
 

Il Morto Qui Parla

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Idealistically, yes.

Realistically, just look around you. It's not how the faith is actually practiced.

Are we discussing intrinsic differences in Messiah figures, or are we discussing how the more prominent Christians actually practice and intellectualize their morality/faith?

I'm saying that Islam promotes violence. If you raise a child on the Quran I think he'd grow up to be a different person than if you raised the same child in the same situation on the Bible.
 

Totenkindly

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I'm saying that Islam promotes violence. If you raise a child on the Quran I think he'd grow up to be a different person than if you raised the same child in the same situation on the Bible.

I know what your thesis is. :)

We're just trying to support or refute it.

see y'all on Sunday!
 

darlets

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I'm saying that Islam promotes violence. If you raise a child on the Quran I think he'd grow up to be a different person than if you raised the same child in the same situation on the Bible.

And to be consistant you need to continue that line of thought until you find the belief system that is the most peaceful and Christianity isn't it.
 

Alfa Prime

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Considering that Mohammed was a military leader who converted and subordinated tribes by force and imposed taxes and discriminatory laws against non-muslims and promoted the destruction or conversion of non-muslim societies, and that he is Gods foremost prophet on earth according to Muslims and one whose actions are beyond reproach, is it possible to be peaceful and tolerant and be a true muslim?

I have been taught about Islam by many enlightened people. What they have to say is quite different from the general/extremist Muslim behaviour/beliefs today.

It is true as you say, he was a military leader - among MANY things. But the wars (all but ONE.) He fought were FORCED upon Him by men who wanted to kill Him, His people and His religion. The one war which He did start was a tactical preemptive strike to protect His people: If I remember correctly, it was because the army He attacked was on its way to join another, more powerful army against Him. In fact, there is a Hadith that tells how He spared an entire village just because an old woman shared some water with Him and His followers. As a result, the entire village later on converted to Islam.

Islam was not spread by the sword only, but also because of its character. It even made the wars more civil: It became forbidden to kill children, women and old, weak people, rape the women, etc - something we consider common sense today.

Also, here's something I bet most of you (including muslims) have never heard: It is forbidden for Muslims to rebel against their government, regardless of what non-/religion(-s) is dominating in a country. Muslims are strongly urged to resolve matters peacefully.

There is another Hadith which is relevant within the context of this thread: After one of the wars the Prophet fought (PBUH) He told His followers that they were leaving the lesser Jihad for the greater Jihad (which is the battle one fights against one's ego, to strengthen your spiritual self, and connection with God). This greater Jihad has a much higher priority.

In light of the above, I declare the quote below as invalid. It is fully possible to live a peaceful life, and still be a good muslim.

...For a Muslim to be peaceful, he must go against Mohammed's example. I see a clear differentiator there.
 

Usehername

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What are the 5 things muslims must abide by? Those are all peace-centered, if I recall correctly.

It's a matter of delineating between those who are culturally muslim, vs. those who are soulfully muslim, I think. Just like there are many Christians who truly believe/etc. but, seriously, they only think deep enough to get to the culture part and act in sometimes very awful ways.

If they get to the soul-part, yes. If they're comfortable humming around the culture part, no.
 

Zergling

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Yes, it is possible to be a peaceful muslim. A higher percentage of peaceful muslims exists in areas with a culture that does not value religious warfare, and where the religious leaders do not preach violence.

(The United states currently has had one violent event related to religious violence, which if I remember right was carried out more by immigrants than by homegrown muslims and converts. East Asian countries with muslims have had problems here and there, but many of them have come about in areas where large groupsof both muslims and non-muslims exist in the country (Philippines, Thailand), and may be hard to separate from any sort of conflict between multiple religious groups. Malaysia and Bangladesh are not known for religious violence, though that may just be from missing information on my part. Similar problems also exist in parts of Africa, but the religious element may be hard to separate from other multi-group fighting.)

3. Suicide as a sex-substitute? Where are the exploding Catholic priests? Vans with gas cylinders driven by Carmelite nuns? Buddhist monks with box-cutters boarding airplanes?

The full argument was something along the lines of: In areas with Polygyny, some males will have trouble finding females for themselves (Which is a pretty bad sounding way to say it, but to continue). However, by being offered females from suicide bombings, they now have an opportunity for females if they carry out a bombing.

Since Catholic priests and nuns, buddhist monks, and any other equivalents in other religious choose to give up females (Or males, for nuns), rather than being outcompeted for them, they will have less of a reason to want to do something just to get some. In addition, since those religious don't offer virgins as an afterlife reward for violent martyrs, there is no reward for carrying out bombings.

I would still argue the polygamy arguments, for the reason you mentioned earlier about it becoming less common. It does make sense that polygamy in early times, pus the virgin rewards, would have built up a warrior/death tradition that currently motivates modern day people, but that would just have the same effect as any other type of warrior/martyr tradition.
 

Magic Poriferan

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Of course it's possible to be a peaceful Muslim.
Nearly all of these religious texts contradict themselves, and provide support for both peace and war. It's up to the practitioner to pick which one.

I might be splitting hairs here, but you can't really say that Mohammed was a military leader. He was a preacher that knew how to enlist.
Now, Khalid Ibn Al-Walid, aka "The Sword of Allah", really kicked-ass.
Sure, Mohammed converted that guy, and let him do his stuff, but that only really makes him an accessory to the crime, no? :D
 
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Halla74

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Yes, it's possible, people have done it since Mohammed was alive.

Correct.

What many fail to realize is that "al-Qaeda" and "The Taliban" are not groups whose ideology are reflective of "true Islam."

However "al-Qaeda" and "The Taliban" who integrated their fundamentalist and violent views into core beliefs of Islam, to create nice sects of "Radical Islam."

I grew up with an Egyptian family and an Iranian family as neighbors of mine, and we were all very close, very good friends. In neither home was I ever subjected to radical/violent beliefs, only good company and platter after platter of Baklava, bowls of Tabouli, and plates of stuffed grape leaves. Man, those were the days! :drool: :laugh: :happy:
 

Lark

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I dont think its islam, its the cultural context, I mean go long enough back along the time line and you could be asking is it possible to be a peaceful RC or protestant depending on the culture and context.

In RC europe at the time of the reformation protestantism and fomenting rebellion and terror when hand in hand, even Luther gave his backing to the authorities in putting down the peasant wars in Germany, in the UK there's a long history of anti-catholicism, although the more intellectual opponents of "papism" suggest its only "political catholicism" which was ever their enemy (mind you they still manage to tolerate the union between Church and State of the protestant faith fairly well).
 

Metamorphosis

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Yes, it's possible, people have done it since Mohammed was alive.

Not Mohammed, though. :D

But yes, it's obviously possible and frequent. I have had a number of good Muslim friends and have yet to meet a radical Islamic fundamentalist!

Religion has always been a convenient rationalization for a conflict that must happen for other reasons.
 

Mole

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Yes, it is possible to be a peaceful muslim if all the world is muslim.

In the meantime jihad must be waged against dhimmi and infidels until they are converted or killed of subjugated to totalitarian Islam.
 

kendoiwan

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The premise of the OP is utterly flawed. A cursory reading of the Bible or even a glimmer of knowledge of the history Christianity shows his assumptions of Christianity as inherently peaceful is simply off base.

And once again, if Victor repeats it enough times it must be true.
 

JocktheMotie

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The premise of the OP is utterly flawed. A cursory reading of the Bible or even a glimmer of knowledge of the history Christianity shows his assumptions of Christianity as inherently peaceful is simply off base.

And once again, if Victor repeats it enough times it must be true.

You'll notice that the OP specifically only mentioned Jesus, and how he preached general pacifism and there wasn't anything violent about him. Contrast this image with the one of Mohammed provided by the OP, and one can see where the OP is coming from. I don't know if the OP's depiction of Mohammed is accurate or not though.

Christianity does indeed have a bloody history, but this is more the result of the Church than of the faith.
 
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