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  1. #21
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Moved some posts here.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  2. #22

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    I don't buy the polygamy explanation.

    1. Polygyny existed in Islam since the very beginning, ditto for the story of 72 virgins. So how come that the Islamic world survived until a decade or two ago without suicide bombers?

    2. Polygyny in contemporary Islamic world is certainly not the prevailing mode. Among the middle classes it is relatively rare, yet many suicide bombers come from middle class families.

    3. Suicide as a sex-substitute? Where are the exploding Catholic priests? Vans with gas cylinders driven by Carmelite nuns? Buddhist monks with box-cutters boarding airplanes?

    Quote Originally Posted by darlets View Post
    The New testiment was written within a stable empire with a legal system, its mesasge is simple you disobey the "Laws" you get punished, you obey the laws you get rewarded. There's a carrot and there's a stick. Like most religions it reinforces the culture it involves in. The Sumerian and Babalyon religions are good examples of this.

    The Quran was written in an unstable environment the was crying out for a uniting reason to go forth and conquer with. (Christianity had the Romans do the conquering and set up a legal system and framework for them).

    You'll find the old Testment alot more conquest driven because it was written when the babylonians freed the jewish slave and they returned to their homelands to find them occupied.

    The religions that are successful are the ones that can infect the best warriors of the time.

    The world has alot to thank the Ancient Greek and Roman cultures for. The Roman Republic existed for 500 years and the western roman empire for another 500. Thankfully the Christian religion only influenced the last 150 years of it. One of the Romans strenghs was their secular view on society, acceptance of multiple belief systems and their use and development of technology/science.

    Oh, this is just a cool map thingy from wikipedia
    religious map
    I think the point about the Old Testament perhaps misses the point slightly, because ultimately a christian tries to follow the example of christ, and a muslim tries to follow the example of Mohammed. and they are very different examples. It's not simply that they were born at different times, the Christ of mythology was a peaceful man, whilst Mohammed was a military leader. Regardless of why this came to be, my point is that the role models they present for us here in the 21st century are very different ones. One could argue I suppose that Christ maybe never explicitly said that "in Mohammed's position" you shouldn't behave as Mohammed did, and that Mohammed perhaps never explicitly said that ideally one should not be as peaceful as Christ, but I'm not really sure that religious followers reads texts with the frame of mind that the prophets or the son of God were simply responding to chosen situations, rather than God put those people on earth at that time to set a timeless example of human conduct; so the fact that the Islamic faith holds that man at that particualr time to be its height of human perfection on earth is the problem itself.
    dead man talking

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Qui Parla View Post
    3. Suicide as a sex-substitute? Where are the exploding Catholic priests? Vans with gas cylinders driven by Carmelite nuns? Buddhist monks with box-cutters boarding airplanes?
    Well, it's the combination that were discussing, not the separate elements.

    Your analogy is like trying to say gasoline isn't combustible because on its own it doesn't blow up.

    You need the full combination of elements (gas, oxygen, a container to make the force explosive, a match, etc.)

    1. Polygyny existed in Islam since the very beginning, ditto for the story of 72 virgins. So how come that the Islamic world survived until a decade or two ago without suicide bombers?
    Did we have the technology to create suicide bombers five centuries ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Qui Parla View Post
    I think the point about the Old Testament perhaps misses the point slightly, because ultimately a christian tries to follow the example of christ, and a muslim tries to follow the example of Mohammed. and they are very different examples.
    Do Christians really just follow the example of Christ?

    The reason that the evangelicals and fundamentalists cause so many problems is that, despite claiming they are just "following Christ," they use the entire Bible to create a way to live. The Old Testament really is given a great deal of weight in regards to how to live, aside from the fact they don't physically stone people as per the Law. But in terms of morality and what they consider right/wrong, much of the current day doctrine is taken from sources other than Christ.

    (Jesus never discussed homosexuality. Jesus never discussed abortion. Jesus never talked about running a "just war." Jesus was not looking for military might to solve the world's problems. And so forth.)

    TOday's Christians claim to just be following Jesus, but the organizational political belief structure is really anchored in things drawn from all over the Bible. Because they view it as a singular document, rather than as an evolving one.

    All that having been said, I think the core essence of each prophet is different, so it can lead to different attitudes and "tones" of faith such as you describe.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  4. #24

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    Jenniffer

    Christians most certainly don't always follow the example of Christ. However, the core of their belief is that they should follow his teachings, surely? For a christian to be peaceful, he has to follow Christ's example. For a Muslim to be peaceful, he must go against Mohammed's example. I see a clear differentiator there.
    dead man talking

  5. #25
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Qui Parla View Post
    Jennifer

    Christians most certainly don't always follow the example of Christ. However, the core of their belief is that they should follow his teachings, surely? For a christian to be peaceful, he has to follow Christ's example. For a Muslim to be peaceful, he must go against Mohammed's example. I see a clear differentiator there.
    Idealistically, yes.

    Realistically, just look around you. It's not how the faith is actually practiced.

    Are we discussing intrinsic differences in Messiah figures, or are we discussing how the more prominent Christians actually practice and intellectualize their morality/faith?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Idealistically, yes.

    Realistically, just look around you. It's not how the faith is actually practiced.

    Are we discussing intrinsic differences in Messiah figures, or are we discussing how the more prominent Christians actually practice and intellectualize their morality/faith?
    I'm saying that Islam promotes violence. If you raise a child on the Quran I think he'd grow up to be a different person than if you raised the same child in the same situation on the Bible.
    dead man talking

  7. #27
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Qui Parla View Post
    I'm saying that Islam promotes violence. If you raise a child on the Quran I think he'd grow up to be a different person than if you raised the same child in the same situation on the Bible.
    I know what your thesis is.

    We're just trying to support or refute it.

    see y'all on Sunday!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #28
    Senior Member darlets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Qui Parla View Post
    I'm saying that Islam promotes violence. If you raise a child on the Quran I think he'd grow up to be a different person than if you raised the same child in the same situation on the Bible.
    And to be consistant you need to continue that line of thought until you find the belief system that is the most peaceful and Christianity isn't it.
    "The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time."
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  9. #29
    Junior Member Alfa Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Qui Parla View Post
    Considering that Mohammed was a military leader who converted and subordinated tribes by force and imposed taxes and discriminatory laws against non-muslims and promoted the destruction or conversion of non-muslim societies, and that he is Gods foremost prophet on earth according to Muslims and one whose actions are beyond reproach, is it possible to be peaceful and tolerant and be a true muslim?
    I have been taught about Islam by many enlightened people. What they have to say is quite different from the general/extremist Muslim behaviour/beliefs today.

    It is true as you say, he was a military leader - among MANY things. But the wars (all but ONE.) He fought were FORCED upon Him by men who wanted to kill Him, His people and His religion. The one war which He did start was a tactical preemptive strike to protect His people: If I remember correctly, it was because the army He attacked was on its way to join another, more powerful army against Him. In fact, there is a Hadith that tells how He spared an entire village just because an old woman shared some water with Him and His followers. As a result, the entire village later on converted to Islam.

    Islam was not spread by the sword only, but also because of its character. It even made the wars more civil: It became forbidden to kill children, women and old, weak people, rape the women, etc - something we consider common sense today.

    Also, here's something I bet most of you (including muslims) have never heard: It is forbidden for Muslims to rebel against their government, regardless of what non-/religion(-s) is dominating in a country. Muslims are strongly urged to resolve matters peacefully.

    There is another Hadith which is relevant within the context of this thread: After one of the wars the Prophet fought (PBUH) He told His followers that they were leaving the lesser Jihad for the greater Jihad (which is the battle one fights against one's ego, to strengthen your spiritual self, and connection with God). This greater Jihad has a much higher priority.

    In light of the above, I declare the quote below as invalid. It is fully possible to live a peaceful life, and still be a good muslim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Qui Parla View Post
    ...For a Muslim to be peaceful, he must go against Mohammed's example. I see a clear differentiator there.
    "Fortune favours the bold."

  10. #30
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    What are the 5 things muslims must abide by? Those are all peace-centered, if I recall correctly.

    It's a matter of delineating between those who are culturally muslim, vs. those who are soulfully muslim, I think. Just like there are many Christians who truly believe/etc. but, seriously, they only think deep enough to get to the culture part and act in sometimes very awful ways.

    If they get to the soul-part, yes. If they're comfortable humming around the culture part, no.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

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