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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post


    And I agree about Dawkins. I actually have a professor (who does history and philosophy of science and rhetoric of science) who wrote a criticism of Dawkins' popular science work on the basis that what he was doing was rhetorical through and through (which it is), and not necessarily scientific (which is obvious, but during that time calling something by a scientist 'rhetoric' would, and did in the case of my prof, cause furious uproar). Dawkins himself never responded, but wrote later (I forget where, but could find it if pressed) that what he was doing was indeed rhetoric, and that he was proud of that fact. Interesting.
    I'm having trouble finding a problem with his intent or execution here. Rhetoric can convince the non-scientifically minded, and I believe that's his goal.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Huh? I was addressing posts by Antisocial One and Edgar, who both seemed to suggest that magic/fantasy = irrational, therefore books with magic are bad for the 'public' because they encourage irrationality. They were the ones agreeing with the article's presentation of Dawkins' opinion (which may not actually be what his opinion is, as kelric and a few others pointed out earlier).

    *sigh* If I have to explain this one more time...:rolli:
    Yes, I understand your point and your position. I agree.

    I just don't understand why it has to be made. The bigger issue is censorship, I would have thought.
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    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #63
    Senior Member bronte's Avatar
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    V profane - Have you read the God Delusion - if not do its very interesting - I enjoyed it but there was no balance in it at all - as an agnostic with a loathing of organised religion - I agree with most of Dawkins views here -but I can still see that not everything about the world's spiritual belief systems are ridiculous.

    Perhaps also as a feminist I find his 'old school gent of the empire' persona particularly offensive. On you tube somewhere there is an interesting interview between Dawkins and a professor of philosophy talking about postmoderism - he is angry and I'd say pretty irrational.
    I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.
    Maya Angelou

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Yes, I understand your point and your position. I agree.

    I just don't understand why it has to be made. The bigger issue is censorship, I would have thought.
    I don't know. I guess the reason some people believe (not necessarily Dawkins) that fantasy books are bad, from a "rational" point of view, is because they promote irrational ideas. At least I think this is what they were saying (ask Antisocial One). That's why they believe that they should be censured. I think this is a non-issue, though, because the article clearly misrepresented Dawkins, and I don't know anyone in the world who would advocate such a position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    I'm having trouble finding a problem with his intent or execution here. Rhetoric can convince the non-scientifically minded, and I believe that's his goal.
    Oh, I don't think he was particularly 'wrong' in that instance. I was just bringing it up because I thought it was interesting, and relevant insofar as it related to Richard Dawkins. Hence the "interesting" bit at the end.

    I actually like that he admitted that he was 'doing rhetoric' (because he was), even though in general I find him to be a little bit of a blow-hard.

    I take issue with your statement that rhetoric can convince the "non-scientifically minded", though, because rhetoric, another word for persuasion, is used in virtually all human interaction, scientific or otherwise.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #65
    Senior Member locke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    Basically he says that fairy tales are unscientific (obviously true), and that he's not sure if that might lead people away from rationality.
    Can't have people being led away from Christ^H^H^H^H^H^HScience.
    I want something much more different
    Not these factories or prisons
    I wish that the Earth was green again
    I wish I had a gun in my hand


    --Blackbird Raum

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I take issue with your statement that rhetoric can convince the "non-scientifically minded", though, because rhetoric, another word for persuasion, is used in virtually all human interaction, scientific or otherwise.
    This is true. Let me redefine "rhetoric" as "whatever Dawkins does" for the moment. The science is already out there, in books, etc. He's condensing it, simplifying it, and relaying it.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    This is true. Let me redefine "rhetoric" as "whatever Dawkins does" for the moment. The science is already out there, in books, etc. He's condensing it, simplifying it, and relaying it.[
    Don't forget corrupting it for his own megalomaniacal ends.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #68
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    This makes being an intellectual rebel and badass easier.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Don't forget corrupting it for his own megalomaniacal ends.
    The pursuit of truth in society I'd hardly call megalomaniacal. But if he's your ex-boyfriend, and you know more than I do, I defer.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Non politically correct freestyle musing...why not?

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