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  1. #51
    Senior Member V Profane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bronte View Post
    Dawkins just makes me seeth irrationally because Ive heard him talking about 'ridiculous arts degrees' and 'pretentious social science' and generally belittling anything which isn't rct science
    Where?
    "I'm being schooled in the class of V Profane. And it's a sad lesson." - PinkPiranha

  2. #52
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    The issue is often one of balance. Fairy tales and fantasy tend to be highly metaphoric and do in fact communicate aspects of reality. Those aspects are reflections of the subjective world of experience. In the same way our subconscious mind weaves its irrational tales in our dreams, our imaginations explore reality also using metaphor and exaggeration to convey experience and communicate fears and ideals.

    Going to either extreme of focusing one's mind entirely on objective reality or subjective imagination will limit an understanding of the human experience.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  3. #53
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bronte View Post
    but Dawkins has a go at everybody!! He comes across as overwhelmingly arrogant. It is nothing to do with him being an atheist - I share most of his views on religion - but he absolutely refuses to accept anybody else's different view of the world. He is also patronising and frequently rude - not the attributes Id suggest are ideal for a
    Professor of the Public Understanding of Science - a few social graces would go down well as would the ability to listen to others, and develop balance, rather than shout your views from every platform you can get onto.

    Science cannot answer all of the world's problems - it has created many of these problems - something Dawkins never mentions - I would have a great deal more respect for him if he did.

    Humility is a powerful quality as an educator.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    bronte and edcoaching:

    I wasn't addressing whether or not I see fantasy novels as valuable to society or culture (which I do, BTW). I wouldn't advocate getting rid of them at all, because if you had read my post correctly, you would see that I don't attribute the type of dangerous irrationality that you get with, say, religious fundamentalism to the reading of any fantasy book (the Bible included). I was saying that even IF you thought that the type of irrationality present in fantasy books was disquieting (which I don't personally, but which many posters here seem to think), you couldn't attribute the continuation of such thinking to people's having read such books.
    Is this even the point? Censoring the irrational? Seriously?

    And who is to judge what is rational and what is not? Surely not Prof. Dawkins who seems to hold doubts about his own capacities in this regard:

    I read allowed the possibility of frogs turning into princes, whether that has a sort of insidious effect on rationality, I'm not sure.
    Interesting phrasing too, given his own ambition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #54
    Senior Member bronte's Avatar
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    V profane

    Interview on radio 4, his tv programme enemies of reason and loads stuff on his web site re social science and philosophy

    to be fair and in the spirit of balance ive also heard him talk about how he is moved by poetry and music
    I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.
    Maya Angelou

  5. #55
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    The issue is often one of balance. Fairy tales and fantasy tend to be highly metaphoric and do in fact communicate aspects of reality. Those aspects are reflections of the subjective world of experience. In the same way our subconscious mind weaves its irrational tales in our dreams, our imaginations explore reality also using metaphor and exaggeration to convey experience and communicate fears and ideals.

    Going to either extreme of focusing one's mind entirely on objective reality or subjective imagination will limit an understanding of the human experience.
    Absolutely. Fantasy enables us to suspend the limitations of human existence and examine more completely the choices we might make.
    edcoaching

  6. #56
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bronte View Post
    I think I misunderstood you Orangey - but not arguing - debating! and I'm glad you like fantasy novels!

    Dawkins just makes me seeth irrationally because Ive heard him talking about 'ridiculous arts degrees' and 'pretentious social science' and generally belittling anything which isn't rct science

    edcoaching - love the squirrel story and totally agree about the power of fiction to speak to us about some powerful stuff - my 8 year old is reading Potter at the moment and he asks some brilliant questions!


    And I agree about Dawkins. I actually have a professor (who does history and philosophy of science and rhetoric of science) who wrote a criticism of Dawkins' popular science work on the basis that what he was doing was rhetorical through and through (which it is), and not necessarily scientific (which is obvious, but during that time calling something by a scientist 'rhetoric' would, and did in the case of my prof, cause furious uproar). Dawkins himself never responded, but wrote later (I forget where, but could find it if pressed) that what he was doing was indeed rhetoric, and that he was proud of that fact. Interesting.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  7. #57
    Senior Member TheLastMohican's Avatar
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    When taken in proper context...this is what I like about Richard Dawkins.

  8. #58
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Is this even the point? Censoring the irrational? Seriously?

    And who is to judge what is rational and what is not? Surely not Prof. Dawkins who seems to hold doubts about his own capacities in this regard:
    Huh? I was addressing posts by Antisocial One and Edgar, who both seemed to suggest that magic/fantasy = irrational, therefore books with magic are bad for the 'public' because they encourage irrationality. They were the ones agreeing with the article's presentation of Dawkins' opinion (which may not actually be what his opinion is, as kelric and a few others pointed out earlier).

    *sigh* If I have to explain this one more time...:rolli:
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  9. #59
    Senior Member V Profane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bronte View Post
    Interview on radio 4, his tv programme enemies of reason and loads stuff on his web site re social science and philosophy

    to be fair and in the spirit of balance ive also heard him talk about how he is moved by poetry and music
    I've watched most of Dawkins' TV stuff, and I haven't seen him 'belittling anything that isn't science'. Maybe it's because I'm an atheist and sceptic, but I think the majority of criticism of Dawkins is way off the mark, particularly the stuff about him being 'militant' etc. I'm no fanboy, I find him glib at times, and slightly stuffy. But then, he is an old school 'gent' of empire, in some ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post


    And I agree about Dawkins. I actually have a professor (who does history and philosophy of science and rhetoric of science) who wrote a criticism of Dawkins' popular science work on the basis that what he was doing was rhetorical through and through (which it is), and not necessarily scientific (which is obvious, but during that time calling something by a scientist 'rhetoric' would, and did in the case of my prof, cause furious uproar). Dawkins himself never responded, but wrote later (I forget where, but could find it if pressed) that what he was doing was indeed rhetoric, and that he was proud of that fact. Interesting.
    What do you mean by 'popular science work'? The Selfish Gene? The Blind Watchmaker? I'd be interested in reading both documents.
    "I'm being schooled in the class of V Profane. And it's a sad lesson." - PinkPiranha

  10. #60
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by V Profane View Post
    What do you mean by 'popular science work'? The Selfish Gene? The Blind Watchmaker? I'd be interested in reading both documents.
    It was The Selfish Gene, I believe.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

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