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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Yeah, there's been a ecumenical effort going on for years, but I reckon this is the nail in that coffin.
    I don't know, you'd be surprised the extent to which many parts of the catholic church can just ignore the bits they don't like without ever condemning them...and the whole catholic line of "forgiveness" means it's effectively endorsed as long as you pay lip service to the church. I know of catholic groups who have preached for years that non-catholics can go to heaven by being good people, and people who call themselves catholics will not go to heaven if they do not live morally (eg "it's easier for a camel to pas through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven"...nowhere does it say that rich catholics are exempt)...so I thinkt here's a lot of room for subtle disobedience in the Catholic church, because they always want to incorporate *some* liberal elements whilst excluding the most radical...the one thing the Catholic church can't be expected to offer is consistency...Papal infallibility is fine, but as long as you just quietly ignore what he says without directly criticising the old Nazi bastard then you'll be fine.
    dead man talking

  2. #12
    Senior Member darlets's Avatar
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    A brief history of human kind.


    "My God is the only true God and you're going to hell/hades/not nice place/"

    "No way! My God is tougher than your God Naah naah nahnah naah."

    "No his not"

    "Yes he is!"

    "Want a fight!"

    "Bring it B@#$%!!!!"



    Wash, Rinse, Repeat.
    "The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time."
    Bertrand Russell

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  3. #13
    homo-loving sonovagun anii's Avatar
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    Thanks for reminding me why I left RC.


  4. #14
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Hasn't the Roman Catholic church historically absorbed many of the regional beliefs it encounters, but placed new labels on them? Regional deities are renamed as saints and so forth? Isn't that where most of the rituals come from that are not expressed in the Bible? I understood that their philosophy of conversion is not unlike the Roman philosophy of the double-edged sword which absorbed cultures that accepted them and eliminated the ones that did not.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #15
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Well, it's settled. If you're not RC, you're doomed to hell.
    Said as a Protestant: In the sport that is misconstruing Benedict XVI, you just scored a point.

  6. #16
    Senior Member darlets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Hasn't the Roman Catholic church historically absorbed many of the regional beliefs it encounters, but placed new labels on them? Regional deities are renamed as saints and so forth? Isn't that where most of the rituals come from that are not expressed in the Bible? I understood that their philosophy of conversion is not unlike the Roman philosophy of the double-edged sword which absorbed cultures that accepted them and eliminated the ones that did not.
    All religions have. That's how they spread. Just look at the flood myths. Someone is ripping someone else off. Most religions that take off are being used as a vehicle for something. Henry V couldn't become protestant quick enough, he got rid of the power struggle between the state (him) and the church (in rome) by making himself the head of the "new church". He also got to divorce his wife.

    The other leaders in europe where just lining up to cut ties with an constant external challenge to their power, and bring it into the country at least and preferably someone they had more control over.

    Look how Constantine used Christianity to break the power base of the Hellanic temples when he came to power. Christianity was the major religion of the army and it didn't take much to encourage them to loot and pillage all the non Christian Temples. He then got to appoint all the heads of the new church and make cash off the looting. Strangly enough two emperors later when it became illegal not to be Christian, things really took off.
    "The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time."
    Bertrand Russell

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    http://zeropointseven.blogspot.com/

  7. #17
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    Said as a Protestant: In the sport that is misconstruing Benedict XVI, you just scored a point.
    Maybe so, but it made for a great quote.

    Okay--maybe I have misconstrued him. I think most people who read this article will get a similar impression. "Catholicism provides the only true path to salvation" seems pretty clear to me.

    How about clarifying the issue for us, HTB?
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  8. #18
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    I heard they're bringing back the Latin Mass, too. They will do anything to get people back. I fasted with no-meat on Friday for 35 years thinking if I ate it, I'd go to hell. Then, they did away with that rule. I'm still recovering from Catholicism.

  9. #19
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darlets View Post
    All religions have. That's how they spread. Just look at the flood myths. Someone is ripping someone else off.
    In general, I do agree with this, but I would add a few nuances:
    • Sometimes there is "parallel evolution" of a concept, if it's basic enough. (For example, in a religion, just because someone claims their god died and then lived again doesn't mean it was stolen from another tradition. Especially in spiritual matters resurrection is a very broad and generic concept.)
    • Sometimes an idea isn't "ripped off" in a line of descent, sometimes a faith will purposefully frame itself in terms of what is already widely known in order that it can distinguish itself. This is a style of communication, not an intellectual line of descent. (For example, there seems to be much of Genesis that was purposefully phrased in terms of and contrasted with the pagan cultures of Canaan... so that the points of difference between Judaism and the Ba'al religion -- or whatever -- would be even more clearly noted.) It does not mean that the Canaanite religions were the ancestors of Judaism, it means that Judaism was framing itself against them purposefully in how it represented itself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zhash View Post
    I heard they're bringing back the Latin Mass, too. They will do anything to get people back. I fasted with no-meat on Friday for 35 years thinking if I ate it, I'd go to hell. Then, they did away with that rule. I'm still recovering from Catholicism.
    It's too bad you don't live closer, dear, or I would take you out for a cheeseburger (with lots of juicy bacon) on Friday.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #20
    Senior Member darlets's Avatar
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    How the Roman Catholic Institution gets to make statement regarding morals is beyond me. (how they get to exist tax free is beyond me too!)

    "The evidence speaks for itself: Last spring, Law admitted in a deposition that he was aware that John Geoghan had reportedly raped at least seven young boys in 1984 yet nevertheless approved the transfer of Geoghan to another parish, working with other boys. Other documents revealed that Law similarly knew of and ignored decades of reported child abuse by Paul Shanley, placing Shanley in ministries with access to other children. Shanley is currently facing trial on 10 charges of child rape and six counts of indecent assault and battery. Law is jetting back and forth to Rome.

    Throughout his tenure, Law seemed to reserve his warmest sympathy for the abusers, not the victims. He lied to a West Coast bishop about Shanley's history. He signed a document attesting that another known child-molesting priest, Redmond Raux, had "nothing in his background" to make him "unsuitable to work with children." Last week, more court documents revealed that the archdiocese gave new jobs to two priests, one of whom was known to have molested boys while the other had supplied cocaine to a teenage lover. Law's responses to these and earlier disclosures? The molesters had been cleared by physicians; the church kept bad records; his subordinates vetted the transfers; he forgot; he never knew; he's sorry. "
    But why isn't Bernard Law in jail? (Part 2) - By Dahlia Lithwick - Slate Magazine

    Of course you should promote people for such behaviour?!?!?!?! o_O
    "In December of 2002, Cardinal Law decided to resign for the good of the Church. He moved out of the $20 million three story church –owned house in which he had humbly lived in a manner befitting a man of the cloth. He moved to Clinton, Md. where he brought comfort to the Sisters of Mercy of Alma by serving as their chaplain. For a man of his stature that was a modest post and in 2004 it was reported that he was being rewarded for his years of faithful service by being made the archpriest of St. Mary Major Basilica in Rome, one of the four most important basilicas in that city. A Vatican spokesman said he would “be in charge of the administration of the priests and anything related to the basilica.”
    Cardinal Bernard Law: From Glory to Glory
    "The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time."
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