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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Eh. I think you're playing with the word justification now. Justification should be thought of more as testing rather than straight justifying or rationalizing. If you have a belief, testing your belief (justifying or verifying) is the only way to distinguish between true beliefs and false beliefs, which you've already conceded have merit.
    No no. People distinguish between true and false propositions by choice (and they may distinguish wrongly). They may be motivated by some experience, but the experience does not distinguish anything. Both because experiences are not logical objects, and because statements about experiences could be false. The decision to accept an interpretation of an experience is a choice, one for which, like every other, there is no justification. There may be reasons, motivations, or causes, but such things provide no logical basis from which to draw any conclusion.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  2. #32
    Arcesso pulli gingerios! Eldanen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I like these threads. We should start a new subforum in Philosophy called "Lee takes a ridiculous position that he doesn't believe and justifies it for hours to your chagrin."
    Me too. I also love banging my head on a table until I bleed to death.

  3. #33
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    No no. People distinguish between true and false propositions by choice (and they may distinguish wrongly). They may be motivated by some experience, but the experience does not distinguish anything. Both because experiences are not logical objects, and because statements about experiences could be false. The decision to accept an interpretation of an experience is a choice, one for which, like every other, there is no justification. There may be reasons, motivations, or causes, but such things provide no logical basis from which to draw any conclusion.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    The problem with this is, you would not be doing logical analysis of your beliefs, therefore you do not know if what you regard as knowledge truly is knowledge. Because of this, it does not make sense for you to hold on to your beliefs at this point.
    So it is a prerequisite to performing logical analysis that one cares whether their beliefs are true?
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  5. #35
    Arcesso pulli gingerios! Eldanen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Hey BlueWing, do I know you from elsewhere? Do you have any alternate names or nicks?

  6. #36
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    BlueWing,

    Sense perception is theory-laden. A simple report, such as, 'there are books on the shelves nearby,' is loaded with theory. Even the notion of a book is one which is defined in terms of lawful behaviour, and thus, governs over an infinite domain. If these laws by which the characteristics of a book are understood are false, then what are on the shelves nearby? Not books, because books do not exist. When interpreted with new theories, the same perceptions may be reported entirely differently, 'there are no books on the shelves nearby,' or even, 'there is no shelf nearby.' That which is called evidence could be false, and lead one astray if mistakenly classified as true.

    Self-evidence--valued highly by those who seek refuge from responsibility--is also theory-laden. Those who claim to have had divine experiences should do well to remember it. Enough mad-men have stolen, murdered, and raped, because God told them to. If they had as much scepticism for self-evidence as is common of ordinary evidence, then perhaps fewer of them would be thought mad. Men are apt to project their initial interpretation of the evidence, and mistake it for the way the world has to be.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  7. #37
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    So it is a prerequisite to performing logical analysis that one cares whether their beliefs are true?
    Other way around. First we analyze all things with as few preconceived notions as possible and only after we have finished analyzing we decide what is true and what is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldanen View Post
    Hey BlueWing, do I know you from elsewhere? Do you have any alternate names or nicks?
    Solitarywalker
    Seawolf399

    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    BlueWing,

    Sense perception is theory-laden. A simple report, such as, 'there are books on the shelves nearby,' is loaded with theory. Even the notion of a book is one which is defined in terms of lawful behaviour, and thus, governs over an infinite domain. If these laws by which the characteristics of a book are understood are false, then what are on the shelves nearby? Not books, because books do not exist. When interpreted with new theories, the same perceptions may be reported entirely differently, 'there are no books on the shelves nearby,' or even, 'there is no shelf nearby.' That which is called evidence could be false, and lead one astray if mistakenly classified as true..
    It is possible to create epistemic constructs in which the terms shelf and books have one meaning that is clear to all. As after all, when someone tells you, your fly is unzipped, you don't go on wondering whether this is a meaningful statement, you proceed to action immediately.



    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Self-evidence--valued highly by those who seek refuge from responsibility--is also theory-laden. Those who claim to have had divine experiences should do well to remember it. Enough mad-men have stolen, murdered, and raped, because God told them to. If they had as much scepticism for self-evidence as is common of ordinary evidence, then perhaps fewer of them would be thought mad. Men are apt to project their initial interpretation of the evidence, and mistake it for the way the world has to be.
    Did I argue that some things are self-evident and therefore need not be questioned at all, perhaps we have another miscommunication?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Other way around. First we analyze all things with as few preconceived notions as possible and only after we have finished analyzing we decide what is true and what is not.
    I prefer to analyse things with as many preconceived notions are possible, because it makes my ideas so much more difficult to stand by. Anyway, someone can analyse ideas even though they do not think that any idea is true; postmodernists do it frequently.

    It is possible to create epistemic constructs in which the terms shelf and books have one meaning that is clear to all. As after all, when someone tells you, your fly is unzipped, you don't go on wondering whether this is a meaningful statement, you proceed to action immediately.
    I think you missed the point.

    Did I argue that some things are self-evident and therefore need not be questioned at all, perhaps we have another miscue?
    No, but then I wasn't arguing with you.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    if this is true, then what use does discussing it serve

  10. #40

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    Re: title of thread

    ...therefore so is this thread?

    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

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