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  1. #11
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirsch63 View Post

    This was fun though, thanks P.
    It is a shame you don't post more...

  2. #12
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    How familiar are you with other Eastern influences that helped to season its creation/legislative expression? Specifically, I refer to Mughal / Chinese dynasty market dynamics.
    Do you mean what influence it had on Western feudalism? Or on the concept in general? I know about the feudal system that existed in China under the Zhou dynasty and of course during the Warring States Period.

    I'm only vaguely familiar with the Mughal system, and most of what I know usually concerns its relationship with the British colonialists.

    I am aware of indirect Muslim influence on the developments of later Feudal and early modern political establishments. This is in regards to what we have come to know as "absolute monarchy", which meant a centralization of power in the hands of the monarch at the expense of the other power bases(aristocracy, church, local communes). From that matter moment on, we have the Ancien Régime - where the old feudal titles and formalities still existed, but largely ceased to have any real signficance.

    The Muslim influence was largely the result on interactions between the Islamic and Christian worlds as a result of the Crusades.

  3. #13
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Do you mean what influence it had on Western feudalism? Or on the concept in general? I know about the feudal system that existed in China under the Zhou dynasty and of course during the Warring States Period.

    I'm only vaguely familiar with the Mughal system, and most of what I know usually concerns its relationship with the British colonialists.

    I am aware of indirect Muslim influence on the developments of later Feudal and early modern political establishments. This is in regards to what we have come to know as "absolute monarchy", which meant a centralization of power in the hands of the monarch at the expense of the other power bases(aristocracy, church, local communes). From that matter moment on, we have the Ancien Régime - where the old feudal titles and formalities still existed, but largely ceased to have any real signficance.

    The Muslim influence was largely the result on interactions between the Islamic and Christian worlds as a result of the Crusades.
    I was speaking in the broadest sense possible.

    Mughal culture is an interesting mix of traditional Indian/Chinese heritage alongside Western ideals. Of particular significance to this maturation was the geographical proximity India enjoyed - both as a trade route by sea and as a buffer point for religious conflict.

    As a result of her geography, much of India's historical economic system is probably best described as a hybridization of global beliefs.

    The Mughal system is thought to have enjoyed similar democratic dynamics America inherited from its colonial ancestry with Britain - most notably is a representation of the English Bill of Rights (which was later cultivated into our American Bill of Rights). This Western distinction was a difficult fusion with China's Qing dynasty - a sounding board for civil unrest (Chinese rebellion to the "Rule of Heaven" that traditionally allowed her rulers to exercise absolute authority over their constituents...).

    This creativity in governing style influenced systems of government (like Feudalism) that would later transform into quasi-theistic/autocratic systems presently in power.

    Forgive the simplicity of my summary. Much of what we see today in India is a result of the duality in temperament she struggled with during this era. Asian Feudalism was influenced by India's mosaic.

  4. #14
    Sniffles
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    Hey Night, I don't know if you've already read this, but Fiefs and Vassals: The Medieval Evidence Reinterpreted by Susan Reynolds is a very good source on the nature and development of Feudalism.

    Her other major book Kingdoms and Communities in Western Europe, 900-1300 is also very good - although I have not read through it as thoroughly as the former.

  5. #15
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Hey Night, I don't know if you've already read this, but Fiefs and Vassals: The Medieval Evidence Reinterpreted by Susan Reynolds is a very good source on the nature and development of Feudalism.

    Her other major book Kingdoms and Communities in Western Europe, 900-1300 is also very good - although I have not read through it as thoroughly as the former.
    I've read excerpts from both - thank you for the recommendation.

    Reynolds is a brilliant scholar on the topic of Feudalism (also quite informed on the impact of class and religion in medieval Europe / territorial expansion and class in medieval England). Your counsel towards her is greatly appreciated, Peguy...

  6. #16
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    I was speaking in the broadest sense possible.

    Mughal culture is an interesting mix of traditional Indian/Chinese heritage alongside Western ideals. Of particular significance to this maturation was the geographical proximity India enjoyed - both as a trade route by sea and as a buffer point for religious conflict.

    As a result of her geography, much of India's historical economic system is probably best described as a hybridization of global beliefs.

    The Mughal system is thought to have enjoyed similar democratic dynamics America inherited from its colonial ancestry with Britain - most notably is a representation of the English Bill of Rights (which was later cultivated into our American Bill of Rights). This Western distinction was a difficult fusion with China's Qing dynasty - a sounding board for civil unrest (Chinese rebellion to the "Rule of Heaven" that traditionally allowed her rulers to exercise absolute authority over their constituents...).

    This creativity in governing style influenced systems of government (like Feudalism) that would later transform into quasi-theistic/autocratic systems presently in power.

    Forgive the simplicity of my summary. Much of what we see today in India is a result of the duality in temperament she struggled with during this era. Asian Feudalism was influenced by India's mosaic.
    Ok I may have to get back to this latter. Among other things, I might consult my Hindu friend about this. She knows a little bit about Indian history.

  7. #17
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Ok I may have to get back to this latter. Among other things, I might consult my Hindu friend about this. She knows a little bit about Indian history.
    My summary shouldn't presume expertise on my part.

    I really enjoy economic history - particularly as it applies to the development of modern philosophy and the role of religion in contemporary culture.

    Glad to have a friendly ear.

  8. #18
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default Delusion

    Honour is perfectly illustrated in the modern world by Don Quixote and Don Corleone.

    Don Corleone was a criminal and Don Quixote was deluded.

    Criminality and delusion are what happens when you bring honour and chivalry into the modern world.

    Islam has brought honour into the modern world and the result is murder.

    Islam has brought chivalry into the moden world and the result is honour killings.

    The National Socialists were nostalgic for the medieval, for honour and chivalry. And the result was criminality, delusion and murder.

    The revulsion at the modern world is well represented here by astrology, MBTI and traditional Roman Catholicism.

    Pius X declared Modernism to be a heresy in 1907, leading the way for traditional Roman Catholic enthusiastic support of Fascism on two continents.

    And the Islamists today have set their face against modernism.

    But no astronomer, absolutely none, believe in astrology.
    No psychometrician believes in MBTI.
    And Vatican II moved on from medieval Roman Catholicism.
    But unfortunately the Islamists have declared war on us.

    But nostalgia tugs at our sleeve - importunes us - tells us that it has the secret - the meaning of personality - the meaning of fate - the meaning of life.

    And nostalgia tugs at our sleeve because nostalgia is threadbare - it wants our coat - and will say anything to get it.

    And we believe whatever nostalgia tells us and the result is delusion.

  9. #19
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    My summary shouldn't presume expertise on my part.

    I really enjoy economic history - particularly as it applies to the development of modern philosophy and the role of religion in contemporary culture.

    Glad to have a friendly ear.
    Well you maybe happy to hear that within my personal library, I have a copy of Henri Pirenne's Economic and Social History of Medieval Europe.

    Sadly I've not been able to obtain a copy of his classic Mohammed and Charlemagne, although I do have a collection of essays in regards to the issues related to the "Pirenne thesis".

    I also have Sidney Painter's study of French chivalric traditions, along with Maurice Keen's study on chivalry.

    Of course I have plenty other books dealing with various aspects of the Medieval period; it's always been one of my favorite time periods to study.

  10. #20
    Sniffles
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    The National Socialists were nostalgic for the medieval, for honour and chivalry. And the result was criminality, delusion and murder.
    That can only be said of Himmler and the SS, which tried to stylise itself as a latter-day version of the Teutonic Knights. Hitler OTOH thought this was all rubbish.

    Much of National Socialist ideology actually has more to do with modernism than Medievalism. Their support for eugenics was based upon Social Darwinist theories that were highly popular in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

    The concept of the Führerprinzip is largely an adaptation of the 18th century concept of the Enlightened Despot. Hitler modelled himself after the Prussian Enlightened Despot Frederick the Great, even having a portrait of him in the Berlin bunker.

    Whatever their glorification of the past, the Nazi style of rule was very in line with your typical Modern managerial state.

    Pius X declared Modernism to be a heresy in 1907, leading the way for traditional Roman Catholic enthusiastic support of Fascism on two continents.
    Actually the alliance of Catholicism and fascism was at best an uneasy one. Michael Burleigh documents the numerous ways that Catholics resisted Fascism in Sacred Causes: The Clash of Religion and Politics, from the Great War to the War on Terror.

    Even during the Spainish Civil War, Catholic opinion was highly divided - even in Spain. Yes Catholics supported and fought with Franco, if only because the other side was brutally anti-Clerical. Orwell noted within the first pages of Homage to Catalonia how churches were desecrated and priests shot. Yet there were Catholics who fought against Franco, like the Basque autonomist faction among the Republican side. This is one major reason why the Pope refused to fully support either side during the war.

    And Vatican II moved on from medieval Roman Catholicism.
    We moved on from Medieval Catholicism with the Counter-Reformation. With Vatican II we moved on from the Counter-Reformation. Yet Vatican II was conducted in accordance with continuity with the past, not a rupture with it as many falsely interpreted it.

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