Women, "Play Nice" and the Danger Instinct

[prplchknz]

When I go out late at night, I always feel more comfortable if their's a guy in the group that is trust worthy. if I am having to ride the bus or train late at night or alone, and their's a guy creeping me out. I will get off at the next stop and then get on the next bus. Luckily with the train I can just switch cars. but then I have that fun walk from the stop (if taking the train to my apartment which is 5 blocks) luckily the bus lets out right in front of my apartment building so I walk like 50 feet. I also have a thing of mace, it's sad that I have to take all these precautions to have fun, but I'm only 130 lbs most guys weigh more then that and could easily over power me. So yeah, I still prefer late nights with a guy that I know I can trust. Also if their's a male in the group, it seems to me less likely something would happen. With guys I always go with my instinct, fuck societies rules I'd rather go against what I was taught then be raped kidnapped or killed.

[LadyJaye]

Originally Posted by Jae Rae

The Kiss of Death for women is our training to be nice, not make a scene, etc. I feel I've spent a lot of my adult life unlearning to be nice.

I've learned to listen to my gut. Once I got off BART in downtown Oakland - not a great area - and was walking the four blocks to work. I started getting a creepy vibe that someone was following me. I ducked into a deli and turned around to confront the guy who followed me in: "Stop following me." I looked right at him. He stammered: "I wasn't following you." I waited until he walked in the opposite direction and then headed out again. A woman caught up to me and said she'd seen him following me and I was absolutely right about him. Her hit was that he was going to snatch my purse.

Good for YOU!

There is no good reason for a man to follow, stalk or stake out a woman. Usually these are guys with poor social skills who feel they're entitled to her stuff, including her body and sexuality, if they can take it. No need to feel ashamed or worried you're going to offend a "nice" guy. If your body tells you it's wrong, it's wrong. Usually your body is screaming the message to get away.

Seriously. And the alarming thing about being taught to ignore your intuition is that it makes all women targets. You've essentially been defeated before you have a chance to fight back.

I worked with a guy in his 30s who used to touch the hair of the all the nice library pages who were in our early 20s. It bothered us a lot; I mentioned it to one of the other pages, but we were afraid of being thought of as troublemakers, so said nothing even though he was the troublemaker. I've learned a lot since then.

YUCK! How awful. And how accurate, the whole "troublemaker" label. One day I actually sat there and thought about it, and I came to the conclusion that
" Who cares if you think I'm a troublemaker?!" But it took me a long time to get to that point. And believe me, I got yelled at a LOT for standing up for myself, even by my parents, which was discouraging because their opinions of me really mattered.

Pink and I were stalked by a guy from CHURCH for several months - followed us around the city, showing up at my work, showing up where I was hanging out with my friends. When he finally showed up at my house, I opened the door and told him that if he ever came here again, I was going to beat him down. But the people at church were very " Oh dear, we're so sorry" but then they did very little about it, because it wasn't nice. They did eventually tell the guy to leave the church, but only after he'd harassed the two of us for almost a year.

[LadyJaye]

Originally Posted by prplchknz

When I go out late at night, I always feel more comfortable if their's a guy in the group that is trust worthy. if I am having to ride the bus or train late at night or alone, and their's a guy creeping me out. I will get off at the next stop and then get on the next bus. Luckily with the train I can just switch cars. but then I have that fun walk from the stop (if taking the train to my apartment which is 5 blocks) luckily the bus lets out right in front of my apartment building so I walk like 50 feet. I also have a thing of mace, it's sad that I have to take all these precautions to have fun, but I'm only 130 lbs most guys weigh more then that and could easily over power me. So yeah, I still prefer late nights with a guy that I know I can trust. Also if their's a male in the group, it seems to me less likely something would happen. With guys I always go with my instinct, fuck societies rules I'd rather go against what I was taught then be raped kidnapped or killed.

You do what you have to do to feel safe, bottom line. When I was a teenager, I almost always went out with a guy friend. It's so much safer. But you're right, the last 50 feet to the door can be a problem. I used to work second shift, and when I pulled up into my driveway, I had all of my things already consolidated into one manageable bag, and I didn't unlock my car door until I'd put my keys in between my fingers, so they stuck out, in case I had to defend myself ( like I said, we lived in a really unsafe area ), and it also kept me from having to fumble around for them or accidentally drop them.

[Jae Rae]

Originally Posted by LadyJaye

Good for YOU!




Seriously. And the alarming thing about being taught to ignore your intuition is that it makes all women targets. You've essentially been defeated before you have a chance to fight back.



YUCK! How awful. And how accurate, the whole "troublemaker" label. One day I actually sat there and thought about it, and I came to the conclusion that
" Who cares if you think I'm a troublemaker?!" But it took me a long time to get to that point. And believe me, I got yelled at a LOT for standing up for myself, even by my parents, which was discouraging because their opinions of me really mattered.

Pink and I were stalked by a guy from CHURCH for several months - followed us around the city, showing up at my work, showing up where I was hanging out with my friends. When he finally showed up at my house, I opened the door and told him that if he ever came here again, I was going to beat him down. But the people at church were very " Oh dear, we're so sorry" but then they did very little about it, because it wasn't nice. They did eventually tell the guy to leave the church, but only after he'd harassed the two of us for almost a year.

Not to offend you or anyone else, but do you think this is a Southern thing? I have a friend whose family is from S. Carolina and we talk about overcoming this "nice" thing all the time.

A church guy, who would have guessed? If you read the "Places to Meet Nice Guys" articles, church/synagogue is on the list. But insecure, immature men hang out everywhere.

A friend of mine and I went to the beach when we were teens in Florida. When I came out of the water, my friend was squared off a with a guy in a very tense way. He walked off and my friend told me he'd said "You have by far the best breasts on the beach today." That was his opening line!! I went home and told my mom, who didn't see anything wrong with it. She felt he was complimenting her.

Years later, I had an encounter with a middle-aged guy who came to the Rare Book Room where I worked every Saturday. We chatted politely. One day he came in, gave me a picture he'd drawn, then jumped at me and tried to kiss me. Instead of yelling loudly and telling him to go away and never come back, I ran out and got one of the male employees to stand by me when I told him politely to stay away from me. When I told a male friend this story, he actually felt sorry for the guy. "It's hard for older men to get affection." Be nice messages are quite ubiquitous.

And then we, as women, are made to feel there's something wrong with us for wanting our bodies to remain our own and for not considering how the guy feels.

[Ivy]

I do think Southern women are taught more social submission than women in many other areas. Probably at least in part because we're in the Bible Belt. A lot of what I remember being taught as a child about this sort of thing was basically "turn the other cheek," "always return good for evil" and stuff like that.

[LadyJaye]

Originally Posted by Jae Rae

Not to offend you or anyone else, but do you think this is a Southern thing? I have a friend whose family is from S. Carolina and we talk about overcoming this "nice" thing all the time.

Oh hey, no offense taken at all. It IS a Southern trait. Usually, the culture of pleasantness works out, but it requires all parties in a situation to be aware of the unspoken rules. If someone gets vulgar or rude, then I think past history called on the Southern man to defend the offended woman. This doesn't work AT ALL now. So we have to unlearn all of that unhelpful politeness. To me, it's like a form of learned helplessness.

Of course, when I was in school in Ireland, I encountered the "play nice" in the girls I was in class with to an extreme that I've never seen before. They treated Pink and I like we were both Rambo for telling a guy to step off. lol

Years later, I had an encounter with a middle-aged guy who came to the Rare Book Room where I worked every Saturday. We chatted politely. One day he came in, gave me a picture he'd drawn, then jumped at me and tried to kiss me. Instead of yelling loudly and telling him to go away and never come back, I ran out and got one of the male employees to stand by me when I told him politely to stay away from me. When I told a male friend this story, he actually felt sorry for the guy. "It's hard for older men to get affection." Be nice messages are quite ubiquitous.

HOW awkward! And what was your guy friend thinking?!

And then we, as women, are made to feel there's something wrong with us for wanting our bodies to remain our own and for not considering how the guy feels.

Exactly. Wonderfully stated.

[Mondo]

Always trust that instinct!
There are some creepy people who take advantage of the fact that some feel that they have to 'play nice'. Don't feel sorry for such losers.

[Anja]

I was raised to ALWAYS defer to my elders. This caused me no end of difficulty in my first few jobs and especially in college where I ran into the old "You want an A?" thing more times than any man would ever believe happens.

"Anja, are you being sexually harrassed?"

"No! No! (I didn't do anything to get into "that kind" of situation.)

"Are you sure you're okay?"

"Um, yeah. I'm fine. No problem. I think."

In spite of decades of efforts at consciousness-raising we remain in the dark ages of awareness. Given the power, and the "secret" of sexual abuse and how widespread it is I'm afraid that we'll always have this problem.

I've tried before to explain to men what it is to be woman. To always be watching one's back. It's a difficult thing for them to comprehend. There's a certain lack of self-awareness there for many men about how their attitudes, if not behavior, contribute to the problem. I know it took having a female child for my husband to finally sit up and pay attention.

The part Mom forgot? "ALWAYS defer to your elders unless. . ."

Having raised two children, one of them a very sociable female child, I know that parents walk a very fine line teaching their children caution. It's not an easy thing to teach without frightening a child. I was careful not to crush her free-spirited and trustful ways and at the same time needed to educate her about taking care of her self and trusting her gut.

She's got it but she had to run the gauntlet, just like most all of us do, to get there. Sad.

[Anja]

(Hey,Jae. I ride also and once upon a time was a librarian and taught English! Kewl.)

[Jae Rae]

Anja, thank you for sharing your story. I agree - it takes some men awhile to understand how a woman feels when she's being sexually harrassed. Parenthood often does it.

There are even judges who don't understand why a woman would want a restraining order against a guy. "Can't you just talk to him?"

Where were you a librarian?