Asperger Syndrome, Autism, and MBTIc: a questionnaire

[Jennifer]

1. Are you on the autistic spectrum?
No.

2. If not officially diagnosed, have you ever thought that it was likely that you might be on the autistic spectrum?
Not really.

4. This question is for everyone, whether on the spectrum or not: How many people with an autistic spectrum disorder do you personally know personally? How severe is it? If possible, what do you think the would be the MBTI type of the person?

I don't think I have ever met someone categorized purely as autistic, although I have had friendships with a few Aspies (one a coworker for a few years) which are considered to be on one end of the autistic spectrum.

I think wc said something similar to this before, but they seemed to be an odd combination of INTP, INTJ, and ISTJ. They are mentally very quick and perception and interested in abstractions... but at the same time, they often seem to need lots of closure/stability to function. The ones I knew also were very detailed. One was an analyst, for example, and despite having an NT mindset would also be sensor-level meticulous with detail in her reports; another was an artist and her work was just amazing -- perfect crafted, very detailed, each line in the right place.

Emotionally and socially there were some big issues: My coworker eventually was fired (after lots of interpersonal frustrations on our team) because she threatened and physically assaulted a visiting consultant who she deemed unprofessional; and my friend and I eventually stopped talking because she would read periods of silence in our online friendship as abandoning her or somehow taking advantage of her behind her back.

It was really as if they just had not received any sort of "social interaction" subroutine by which to understand and process relational situations.

I will still really stress, though, that one of these people was selfless (she has spent her whole life caring for a physically disadvantaged son) and she consistently sends xmas cards despite being gone here for a few years; and the other one experienced concern for others. (When 911 happened, she actually called my house from halfway across the country to see if I was okay.) It was like the emotional/relational thing but in a very childlike or inexperienced form, where the nuances just weren't there but the intentions still were.

I think as far as MBTI types, now that I have thought more about it -- it's like mentally they deal from an NT perspective, but behaviorally they operate in ST mode. Does that make sense? That's why I keep getting mixed reads.


5. If you are NOT on the autistic spectrum, how would you personally describe autism and how you perceive it?

I'm not sure on this -- will get back later.

6. For everyone: What do you think is the cause of autism? Do you think that it is, in fact, a disorder, or rather a difference in brain structure? Do you think there should be a cure? What is your opinion of the neurodiversity movement?

I don't remember many details any longer, but even in the popular lit (Newsweek), there seemed to be some indication that it was partly tied to brain chemistry during development and potential differences in developing structure.

As far as a cure? I don't know. And I don't think it's up to people to forcibly cure someone. In one sense, people are who they are, and trying to "fix" them seems like a violation. On the other hand, there are still social and relational issues that make life more difficult for autistic people and their families as part of dealing with their situation. In those situations, I would not blame an autistic if they wanted to mesh better with society.

As far as in vitro fixes? I have no idea. I generally don't like it.

8. Same as the above, accept for non-autists. Any notable situations that you can recall where the subject of autism or an autistic individual was prominent?

Well, like I said above: My coworker lost her job because she (1) could not compromise, (2) got frustrated easily, and (3) would get very rude and obnoxious, even physically violent, if the frustration was not reduced. And she was a very very smart lady, mentally.

Likewise, my friend could not maintain relationships with other people, had trouble holding down jobs, and just could not perceive clearly enough in social situations to navigate them. So she was very lonely... one reason why her art was so good (because it was one of the things she could depend on and do well).

Still, my coworker was so faithful and giving to her child, and my friend was SO talented artistically in terms of execution.

[Uberfuhrer]

Originally Posted by Jennifer

Well, like I said above: My coworker lost her job because she (1) could not compromise, (2) got frustrated easily, and (3) would get very rude and obnoxious, even physically violent, if the frustration was not reduced.

These are the exact reasons I've lost my jobs. Is your coworker on disability? What is her type?

When I have a vision, I often obsess with the meticulous details of realizing it. It's something that INTJs tend to be very good at, since they're interested in bringing their ideas to a concrete reality when motivated, but at the same time, my mind is always on the big picture. I tend to develop a sort of Howard Hughes mentality, and I think he was an INTJ, too. Honestly, if I was a billionaire, I could see myself being a lot like Howard Hughes.

Originally Posted by Jennifer

I think as far as MBTI types, now that I have thought more about it -- it's like mentally they deal from an NT perspective, but behaviorally they operate in ST mode. Does that make sense? That's why I keep getting mixed reads.

You've pretty much described the INTJ. The INTJ is generally very abstract in thinking and visionary in scope (be it through art, writing, science, business, etc.), but is concrete and direct in expression and structured and routinized in lifestyle. Whereas the INTP is abstract in both thinking and communication. An INTP artist, for example, would be more ambiguous in his expression, leaving room for other INTPs to interpret the language (think Wildcat! ). This is probably why NPs seem to be much more interested in poetry than NJs.

[wildcat]

Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer

I'm thinking any introverted NT types, with the introverted ST types following, probably more likely for the ISTJ.

I'm think the INTJ would be more likely because, as a J, he needs structure and routine and does not like surprises, one of the hallmarks of autistic spectrum disorders.

And Aspies are likely to be noted for idiosyncrasies which would push them closer to an N type, specifically NT.

I'm also guessing that the NTPs (particularly ENTP) will more likely be ADD (mental hyperactivity), while the ESTP would be more likely ADHD (physical hyperactivity).

Also, OCD, I feel, is in the realm of INTJs, because an OCD patient has to do with performing rituals to filter out unwanted thoughts. They also tend to be conceptual people in general. Keirsey also correlated this trait to the Rational temperament, along with a large proportion of autistic traits.

However, the OCPD patient would more likely be ISTJs. OCPD is what most people associate with OCD, but while the behavior may be the same, the motivations are different. An OCPD patient is the type who is anal about minor rules and details.

The J does not need structure.
She has structure.

[Uberfuhrer]

Originally Posted by wildcat

The J does not need structure.
She has structure.

Well, Js prefer the outer world to be predictable and controlled, that's what I meant about "needing" structure. The J has a personal need for structure. I didn't mean needing structure because they were hard to pin down -- in that case, the P needs structure.

[Jennifer]

Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer

These are the exact reasons I've lost my jobs. Is your coworker on disability? What is her type?

As I said, I couldn't place her -- she is like an INTJ/ISTJ combination.

There are only a few NT's I work(ed) with. My boss is vintage INTJ. We have two roving ENTP programmers. And she was the other one with whom I connected as if she were N -- it was just that style connection -- in terms of her thoughts.

But my INTJ boss -- despite his frustration issues and control issues -- still had a good understanding of how to interact with others, what was appropriate, what was not, etc.

With her, that aspect was just like a big gaping hole. She was rigid and just could not bend or accommodate if something was not the way she would have done it. People were sort of handled by Te.

My other aspie friend had lots of anxiety issues, experienced Tourette's, etc. Socializing was very hard for her.

When I have a vision, I often obsess with the meticulous details of realizing it. It's something that INTJs tend to be very good at, since they're interested in bringing their ideas to a concrete reality when motivated, but at the same time, my mind is always on the big picture. I tend to develop a sort of Howard Hughes mentality, and I think he was an INTJ, too. Honestly, if I was a billionaire, I could see myself being a lot like Howard Hughes.

Again, it's like being partly INTJ... but missing a chunk of what the average INTJ still has in terms of relating. So I still see it as "being trapped between types" in MBTI.

This is probably why NPs seem to be much more interested in poetry than NJs.

Meh. Some of the best poets and writers are INFJs.

[elfinchilde]

Originally Posted by wildcat

The J does not need structure.
She has structure.

wildcat! you're here!

If an interpretation is needed:

Wildcat's point is that an autistic person, (possible likely, a savant) is likely to be a P, which is why he needs the external structure.

Because the MBTI types the personality: hence, someone who is totally P, especially in thoughts--which an autistic person would be, since their world is internal--would need a very structured and ordered routine outside. Because all of the energy is going within on the disordered thoughts, so outside disturbances have to be eliminated, things have to be streamlined and kept as simple and predictable as possible.

right, wildcat?

[Uberfuhrer]

Originally Posted by Jennifer

Meh. Some of the best poets and writers are INFJs.

Well, I was going by my inquiries "[Types] and poetry." The NPs generally seemed to have more interest in poetry than the NJs.

Originally Posted by elfinchilde

Wildcat's point is that an autistic person, (possible likely, a savant) is likely to be a P, which is why he needs the external structure.

Which is why I said that the J prefers to live life as routinized and controlled, not spontaneous and whimsical like the P.

Now the ISTJ would likely be the one who is conscientious about their physical surroundings being orderly along with wanting to be in a routine. The INTJ would be less in tune with physical surroundings and might leave their belongings around (since they are not interested in details that don't relate to their vision), but they still will likely prefer having a structured rather than chaotic lifestyle.

[elfinchilde]

Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer

Well, I was going by my inquiries "[Types] and poetry." The NPs generally seemed to have more interest in poetry than the NJs.

Perhaps because NPs are more open to non-closures, whilst the NJs seek closure. Poetry is about the potential in every line. So as a reader, the NP is likely to get more joy out of it ("all the different possible meanings!"), while an NJ would be frustrated ("what does the author mean?!").

While as a poet, an NP would be more open to creative license, and be accepting that a poem is a work-in-progress, perhaps always. The NJ may be so obsessed with finding the 'right word' (and unable to find it, as the mind would be linear), that the poem never quite gets finished, or to the satisfaction of an NJ?

just as a personal perspective....elfie used to write poetry and has been published before, including in your countries.

Edit: i think an ISTJ autistic person would be interesting to see though. How do you define one, especially if it is in a conservative (relatively) society like mine, where it can be seen as perfect behaviour?

[wildcat]

Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer

Well, Js prefer the outer world to be predictable and controlled, that's what I meant about "needing" structure. The J has a personal need for structure. I didn't mean needing structure because they were hard to pin down -- in that case, the P needs structure.

Exactly.
You said it, Uber.

[Jennifer]

Originally Posted by elfinchilde

While as a poet, an NP would be more open to creative license, and be accepting that a poem is a work-in-progress, perhaps always. The NJ may be so obsessed with finding the 'right word' (and unable to find it, as the mind would be linear), that the poem never quite gets finished, or to the satisfaction of an NJ?

I don't know. Usually most INFJs seem to be able to find the right word just fine, and finish their work. (But they might not be expression their angst openly, if they are embarrassed of their work.)

Yes, P's tend to be more free-form and take license rather than following the rules or adhering to a structure that does not seem to be working any longer. But just because P's can say "great works are never finished, always abandoned" -- note the word "abandoned," it is frustrating as hell because NOTHING is ever as good as I think it might have been, and I know it never wil be.

So both types do have angst and, depending on the person/context, can be extremely dissatisfied with their work here. The J is more likely to just call it "done" and accept it, the P continues to dabble.