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View Poll Results: Does the Five Factor Model inherently define a "good" personality?

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  • Yes

    11 61.11%
  • No

    6 33.33%
  • I don't want to pick yes or no.

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  1. #21
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    spurious correlations between descriptions considered positive that are not actually correlated in reality.
    Are you equally as concerned with MBTI descriptions not correlating/correlating with "reality"? Or would it be fine with you should an MBTI description read: INTPs are the smartest people on earth.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Are you equally as concerned with MBTI descriptions not correlating/correlating with "reality"? Or would it be fine with you should an MBTI description read: INTPs are the smartest fuckers on earth.
    I think MBTI is even more ridiculous. But plenty of people bring up it's short-comings, and in most circles on consequence (places where institutions can affect peoples lives) it was just treated as something bordering on frivolous.

    Big Five, however, purports to be something meaningful. Granted, statistically based nonsense, maybe slightly better than anecdotal nonsense. But it still remains nonsense.

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  3. #23
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I think MBTI is even more ridiculous. But plenty of people bring up it's short-comings, and in most circles on consequence (places where institutions can affect peoples lives) it was just treated as something bordering on frivolous.

    Big Five, however, purports to be something meaningful. Granted, statistically based nonsense, maybe slightly better than anecdotal nonsense. But it still remains nonsense.
    If I score low on agreeability, would you think I agree with everyone to maintain peace, love, and harmony - kumbaya?

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    If I score low on agreeability, would you think I agree with everyone to maintain peace, love, and harmony - kumbaya?
    What's the relevance of that question?

    You personally have made it clear that you don't think everyone should maintain peace, love, and harmony. I personally don't think this is always a good thing either. But does that mean that people (as a whole) don't believe that in most circumstances, it is better to be agreeable than disagreeable?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  5. #25
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    What's the relevance of that question?

    You personally have made it clear that you don't think everyone should maintain peace, love, and harmony. I personally don't think this is always a good thing either. But does that mean that people (as a whole) don't believe that in most circumstances, it is better to be agreeable than disagreeable?
    You posted:

    "Big Five, however, purports to be something meaningful. Granted, statistically based nonsense, maybe slightly better than anecdotal nonsense. But it still remains nonsense."

    Big Five would be "nonsense" if I scored low on agreeability, but agreed with everyone. That was my point. I'm talking correlation, and now you're back to that "good" and "bad" crap, again. Lol. Wise guy.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    You posted:

    "Big Five, however, purports to be something meaningful. Granted, statistically based nonsense, maybe slightly better than anecdotal nonsense. But it still remains nonsense."

    Big Five would be "nonsense" if I scored low on agreeability, but agreed with everyone. That was my point. I'm talking correlation, and now you're back to that "good" and "bad" crap, again. Lol. Wise guy.
    I am saying:
    1) whether we like it or not, words have value judgement.
    2) the value judgement will skew the results compared to a parallel model not based on words.

    Do you disagree with either of those statements?

    Edit: Also, I score low on agreeability usually, and I (on the whole) agree that in most cases, it would be better to agreeable than disagreeable. So then does it make sense that the Big Five is nonsense to me? It only takes a small set of people to skew the results of a whole model. When people (it seems people different from you) are using these models to make hiring decisions, this is troubling.

    Edit 2: I gave examples, like "thorough" and "quick" where it is unlikely that someone is both, but more likely for people to claim to be both if they are full of themselves.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  7. #27
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    The terminology used in the model has bias because of the way these terms and their associated qualities are understood & valued socially. "Introversion" in laymen's terms can mean socially anxious, brooding, unfriendly, etc. "Disagreeable" is loaded with negative connotations. "Conscientious" fails to include the extreme, which is rigidity, but "not conscientious" almost only implies the extreme, which is flakiness, not the positive of being flexible and adaptable.

    I could go on... So yes, there is inherent bias simply in the way the dichotomies are labelled. MBTI, IMO, is less biased, but still has problems (namely, with "thinking" and "feeling").

    Many Big 5 descriptions of each trait has language which reveals bias also. This may be interpretations of the author and not the creators of Big 5, but this is still how it is being presented to people. I have seen some tests which explain the benefits of every quality, including neuroticism, but the very labels they use still leave impressions that one end of the spectrum is superior.
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  8. #28
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Well *done*.
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  9. #29
    movin melodies kiddykat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Does the Five Factor Model implicitly or explicitly define a "good" personality?

    My reading of the literature so far seems like there is an inherently normative language used even in academic research. That is language that makes clear that certain traits are more desirable than others.

    For instance, the Big Five asserts:
    1) Being Extroverted is better than being introverted. An introvert is a lesser being.
    2) Being Agreeable is better than being disagreeable. The disagreeable are lesser beings.
    3) Being Conscientious is better than being not conscientious. Those that aren't conscientious are lesser beings.
    4) Being calm is better than being Neurotic. Those who are Neurotic are lesser beings.
    5) Being Open is better than not being open. Those who are not open are lesser beings.

    I don't think it should come as a surprise that academic researchers who study personality are Extroverted, Agreeable, Conscientious, calm and Open. Self-serving is part of human nature after all.

    So what do you think, does the Five Factor model inherently define a "good" personality?

    Clarification: I am asking if you think the Five Factor model is inherently biased.
    You make a great point! I never really gave it much further thought but once was offended by the agreeableness vs. disagreeable spectrum and thought to myself maybe as to why I tend to fit slightly more on the latter?

    Yes, there's an inherent cultural bias in the wording of the test. So, I'm not a conscientious that makes me not thoughtful or considerate? Some of the high scoring conscientious people I know are conscientious when it comes to their own benefit so maybe word it differently? As opposed to saying I'm lazy.

    Most psych tests do have an inherent culture/value bias in them.

  10. #30
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    I see what you mean. If it were the test makers' intention to avoid bias, then using culturally loaded words would have been an extremely obvious mistake to avoid.
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