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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    ^General disposition? I don't think so. What it is supposed to reveal are your real associations - irrespective of your intentions. We absorb such associations from our environment without conscious effort.
    It is only with conscious effort that we can undermine the irrational ones which form the basis of stereotypes. Our unconscious mind does not discriminate or filter based on rational criteria - it just says "X and Y seem to always go together so they get filed in the same schema". Eg. "Women" and "home", "men" and "work", "blacks" and "guns".
    If it takes longer for you to match "whites" and "guns" than it does "blacks" - it's indicative that you are having to work harder to bypass your mental schema - or internal representation of the world.
    Ok, then. Good enough. Two follow-ups:

    First, what's the relationship between these associations (I was tempted to say unconscious, but need they really be?) and one's general disposition towards the same objects of these associations?

    Second, are these associations necessarily irrational? And, by your definition, are accurate and irrational mutually exclusive or not? (Personally, I find the words "rational" and "irrational" highly problematic in discourse. They tend to become a catch-all for "your opinion is different than mine" or "you are saying something I don't like.")

  2. #32
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    First, what's the relationship between these associations (I was tempted to say unconscious, but need they really be?) and one's general disposition towards the same objects of these associations?
    It’s not a linear relationship – very much depends on the individual – education, self-knowledge, etc, influence outcome. Plenty of studies demonstrate the negative effect such associations can have though (on women/ethnic minorities) even when they remain unconscious. (Obviously, conscious negative associations producing negative results shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone.) Where they remain unconscious the danger is that rationalizations replace sound rationale for decision-making. For example, it has been found in a number of studies that qualities seen as essential for a job, rather than being an objective standard against which all candidates are measured, are frequently skewed in favour of actual characteristics of candidates from a preferred demographic (usually white, male).
    Second, are these associations necessarily irrational?
    Yes. Such associations are based on (unconscious) correlations. There is no reasoning process associated with arriving at them – hence irrational.
    Correlation <> causation.

    And, by your definition, are accurate and irrational mutually exclusive or not?
    Something may be irrational yet accurate – but in order to prove accuracy, one must resort to logic, not rely on "hunches".
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #33
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    It's quite possible that one simply makes this associations the way one recognizes the symbols on a restroom door.

    However, I feel some skepticism about the capacity of this veritable video-game to reveal something deep about the people interacting with them. I feel like most of the points that could be made or subjects that could be pursued by this have better material to do so. And I always hate trying to capture the sub-conscious. It's never clean work.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    It’s not a linear relationship – very much depends on the individual – education, self-knowledge, etc, influence outcome. Plenty of studies demonstrate the negative effect such associations can have though (on women/ethnic minorities) even when they remain unconscious. (Obviously, conscious negative associations producing negative results shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone.) Where they remain unconscious the danger is that rationalizations replace sound rationale for decision-making. For example, it has been found in a number of studies that qualities seen as essential for a job, rather than being an objective standard against which all candidates are measured, are frequently skewed in favour of actual characteristics of candidates from a preferred demographic (usually white, male).
    I can agree with all of this.

    With regards to the last sentence, I am a bit confused though...

    Are you saying that the desired qualities for the job are skewed in order to fit a specific demographic (i.e., rigging the game to a specific demographic), or that interviewers (etc.) perceive qualities in certain candidates due to the candidates' demographic profiles and the interviewers' unconscious associations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Yes. Such associations are based on (unconscious) correlations. There is no reasoning process associated with arriving at them – hence irrational.
    Correlation <> causation.
    I guess I take more issue here...

    I'm not sure I'm willing to say the unconscious has no reasoning process.

    I think the unconscious could very well have a phenomenal reasoning process.

    Which, I add, is not to deny the fact that it can also have plenty of irrational workings and associations.

    What would you say to this notion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Something may be irrational yet accurate – but in order to prove accuracy, one must resort to logic, not rely on "hunches".
    So one can know something accurately, but their accurate thought is not a rational thought unless its accuracy can be proven by logic?

    (And, so you know, I'm not asking these questions as some fruitless exercise; I want to understand how you use these terms so I have a clearer barometer in the future. In fact, within your first couple sentences I actually let one layer of my guard down, as it became apparent that I can appreciate and agree with the perspective you're taking on this to at least a certain degree. [Is that rational or irrational of me?])

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    It's quite possible that one simply makes this associations the way one recognizes the symbols on a restroom door.
    I believe you'd be referring to semiotics.

    This is part of my reasoning for questioning Morgan.

    I'm not too adept in semiotic theory, but I've had my fair share of exposure.

    Part of my concern is where you draw the line between an accurate association and an inaccurate association.

    Do you consciously or unconsciously recognize what a stop sign means?

    If unconscious, then it would seem rather important to possess these unconscious associations, would it not?

    Ought there be a distinction between a problematic and an unproblematic unconscious association?

    When ought we recognize one of these unconscious associations as problematic, and when unproblematic?

    And what's the relationship between an accurate or inaccurate association, and one that is problematic or unproblematic?

    Imagine a society made up of 50% red people and 50% blue people, and 5% of blue people happen to react violently if you try to chat with them about the weather.

    Is there a problem with having one's unconscious mind remind oneself to be wary of chatting with blue people about the weather?

    Also, to what extent can we consciously override these unconscious associations? And to what extent do we override them?

    If we can and do consciously override these unconscious associations, to what extent do they cause real-world problems?

    And, finally, which ones should be overridden? All conscious and unconscious ones? Accurate and inaccurate ones? Problematic and unproblematic ones?

    These are the questions that come to my mind when I think of things like these...



    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    However, I feel some skepticism about the capacity of this veritable video-game to reveal something deep about the people interacting with them. I feel like most of the points that could be made or subjects that could be pursued by this have better material to do so. And I always hate trying to capture the sub-conscious. It's never clean work.
    What material?

  6. #36
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    I made too many errors... Oops.

  7. #37
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I can agree with all of this.

    With regards to the last sentence, I am a bit confused though...

    Are you saying that the desired qualities for the job are skewed in order to fit a specific demographic (i.e., rigging the game to a specific demographic), or that interviewers (etc.) perceive qualities in certain candidates due to the candidates' demographic profiles and the interviewers' unconscious associations?
    The first one. But the rigging isn’t consciously done. It’s a post-decision rationalization. In one example, there is a male candidate and a female candidate, he has more experience, she has better qualifications. The male candidate is chosen on the basis that “experience counts for more than qualifications in this job”. But where the situation is flipped and the female candidate is more experienced, the male candidate is chosen – on the basis of his being better qualified.

    I don’t have the study to hand, I’ll have to get back to you with references.

    I'm not sure I'm willing to say the unconscious has no reasoning process.

    I think the unconscious could very well have a phenomenal reasoning process.

    Which, I add, is not to deny the fact that it can also have plenty of irrational workings and associations.

    What would you say to this notion?
    Clearly some kind of algorithm is at work. But the results are what we call “intuition” –the process by which we’ve arrived at a conclusion is unknown to us. So we have no way of validating it. Reasoning has to be a conscious process.

    So one can know something accurately, but their accurate thought is not a rational thought unless its accuracy can be proven by logic?
    Rational means based on reason. Reason requires logic, so yeah.
    You can come to the right conclusion but have the wrong set of premises. That isn’t sound reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Part of my concern is where you draw the line between an accurate association and an inaccurate association.

    Do you consciously or unconsciously recognize what a stop sign means?

    If unconscious, then it would seem rather important to possess these unconscious associations, would it not?
    This is a conscious learning process, which with repetition becomes automatic - delegated to the unconscious but via conscious practice and effort.
    The implicit associations which are the focus of Project Implicit – are not ones that we consciously train ourselves to make, they are in a sense, subliminal, but still influence our decision-making processes.

    There is a well-known study* which demonstrates the effects of subtle stereotype priming on behaviour.
    Two groups of men were shown a bunch of television adverts. The first group watched mostly sexist adverts (wherein women where portrayed as sex objects – draped over cars, around beer bottles, etc – tellingly, the men themselves did not perceive the content to be sexist or in any way unusual - just your average beer/car commercial). The control group were shown neutral material. Both groups were then asked to interview a female candidate. The men who were “primed” to view women as sex objects behaved in a very different fashion to the control group. They sat closer to the interviewee, flirted more and asked her more sexually inappropriate questions. Their memories and ability to gauge her qualifications were affected – they remembered more about her physical appearance but far less information that would help them to decide her suitability for the job. They also rated her as less competent – purely based on their own sexualisation of the encounter.

    *Rudman, L. A., & Borgida, E. (1995). The afterglow of construct accessibility: The behavioral consequences of priming men to view women as sexual objects.

    Also, to what extent can we consciously override these unconscious associations? And to what extent do we override them?
    To the extent that we are 1. Aware of them. 2. Disturbed by them and desire to change them.
    http://footballscholar.net/bias/Unle...tereotypes.pdf
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #38
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    I took two, and I got neutral towards government (even though half the time the words were ambiguous and it depended how they were defined, so I guessed) and neutral on self esteem.

    Are all the tests designed the same way? I noticed that after I had to associate a word with the left group and then switch to associating it on the right, it was VERY difficult and I started making mistakes left right and centre. I think this is more likely to be caused by getting in the pattern of putting it on the left side rather than your "bias", so I was puzzled why they didn't switch the sides of good and evil instead. I guess that would have its own difficulties. I don't know, I have my doubts that these tests actually measure anything useful after this experience.

    I wish it had given me the interesting tests. I couldn't find a way to choose tests, it seemed to just give you a random one.
    -end of thread-

  9. #39
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    ^Maybe if you try the demo section? I didn't realise it was random like that for the "live" site.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #40
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Your data suggest a strong association of Jewish Americans with intelligence, virtue, attractiveness, sexual ability, and humor.

    omg its true1!!!!!1!1!!!!!

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