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  1. #131
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    And you are entirely missing the point which is that implication in formal logic means a certain relationship between the antecedent and the consequent. But if you want to shut off your Ne to protect your Ti, I can't stop you.
    And I don't see any reason for you to lower yourself to ad hominem.

    Of course the idea of an "implication" implies some kind of relationship between antecedent and consequent. I have already stated what that is. All I'm saying is that "A implies B" does not mean that A is sufficient for B.

    For example, the Socrates naming in Wikipedia. To be named "Socrates" implies that someone was first given a name. S --> N. But to be named, it is sufficient for that person to be named something, but not necessarily to be named "Socrates."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #132
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    This thread has turned into an interesting discussion containing a great amount of much about nothing. < Let that one break your logic filter.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  3. #133
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    This thread has turned into an interesting discussion containing a great amount of much about nothing. < Let that one break your logic filter.
    Winning is a "something."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #134
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Thanks for making your argument clearer this time. I don't see any difference between an emotion and a feeling-judgment. Because when you have an emotion about something, this was always preceded by a subconscious judgment or evaluation.
    I do think there is a difference, as was described by Jung, but I agree with the above.
    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    This thread has turned into an interesting discussion containing a great amount of much about nothing. < Let that one break your logic filter.
    And this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    And I don't see any reason for you to lower yourself to ad hominem.
    Don't worry, I'm not attacking you. I'm just making an observation that you appear to me to be doing what I've read about INTP's when they stop taking in new information.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Of course the idea of an "implication" implies some kind of relationship between antecedent and consequent. I have already stated what that is. All I'm saying is that "A implies B" does not mean that A is sufficient for B.

    For example, the Socrates naming in Wikipedia. To be named "Socrates" implies that someone was first given a name. S --> N. But to be named, it is sufficient for that person to be named something, but not necessarily to be named "Socrates."
    No, it means that to be named Socrates is sufficient to have a name. You have it backwards.

    Ok, here:
    The front door is locked. In order to open it (in a normal, non-violent way) and get into the house, I must first use my key. A necessary condition of opening the door, without violence, then, is to use the key. So it seems true that

    If I opened the door, I used the key.

    Can we use the truth-functional understanding of “if” to propose that the consequent of any conditional (in (i), the consequent is “I used the key”) specifies a necessary condition for the truth of the antecedent (in (i), “I opened the door”)? Many logic and critical thinking texts use just such an approach, and for convenience we may call it “the standard theory” (see Blumberg 1976, pp. 133–4, Hintikka and Bachman 1991, p. 328 for examples of this approach).

    The standard theory makes use of the fact that in classical logic, the truth-function “p ⊃ q” (“If p, q”) is false only when p is true and q is false. The relation between “p” and “q” in this case is often referred to as material implication. On this account of “if p, q”, if the conditional “p ⊃ q” is true, and p holds, then q also holds; likewise if q fails to be true, then p must also fail of truth (if the conditional as a whole is to be true). The standard theory thus claims that when the conditional “p ⊃ q” is true the truth of the consequent, “q”, is necessary for the truth of the antecedent, “p”, and the truth of the antecedent is in turn sufficient for the truth of the consequent. This relation between necessary and sufficient conditions matches the formal equivalence between a conditional formula and its contrapositive (“~q ⊃ ~p” is the contrapositive of “p ⊃ q”). Descending from talk of truth of statements to speaking about states of affairs, we can equally correctly say, on the standard theory, that using the key was necessary for opening the door.

    Given the standard theory, necessary and sufficient conditions are converses of each other, and so there is a kind of mirroring or reciprocity between the two: B's being a necessary condition of A is equivalent to A's being a sufficient condition of B (and vice versa). So it seems that any truth-functional conditional sentence states both a sufficient and a necessary condition as well. Suppose that if Nellie is an elephant, then she has a trunk. Being an elephant is a sufficient condition of her having a trunk; having a trunk in turn is a necessary condition of Nellie's being an elephant. Indeed, the claim about the necessary condition is simply another way of putting the claim about the sufficient condition, just as the contrapositive of a formula is logically equivalent to the original formula.
    (from the SEP article)

  5. #135
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I do think there is a difference, as was described by Jung, but I agree with the above.

    And this.


    Don't worry, I'm not attacking you. I'm just making an observation that you appear to me to be doing what I've read about INTP's when they stop taking in new information.


    No, it means that to be named Socrates is sufficient to have a name. You have it backwards.

    Ok, here:

    (from the SEP article)
    "Having a trunk in turn is a necessary condition of Nellie's being an elephant." So an elephant without a trunk, sad as that would be, is not an elephant?

    And I didn't stop taking in information. This logic stuff isn't new information to me. For example, saying you're right just because you got an A in Logic is an example of bad logic and you didn't dispute it, because you know I'm right about that. And it doesn't speak very highly of the educational system these days.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #136
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Winning is a "something."
    Yes....but by context I'd say this was a very small...sad....greenish creature squatting in the corner of a something.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  7. #137
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Yes....but by context I'd say this was a very small...sad....greenish creature squatting in the corner of a something.
    Sounds like you're describing @greenfairy's avatar.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #138
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Sounds like you're describing @greenfairy's avatar.
    Haha. Well in my mind I pictured something blobbish with tentacles.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  9. #139
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Haha. Well in my mind I pictured something blobbish with tentacles.
    Ah-haaaaaaaaaa! Introverted sensing.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #140
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Ah-haaaaaaaaaa! Introverted sensing.
    Correct! Dominant?
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

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