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  1. #121
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I can play that game too. A--> B means that A implies B, not that B is a necessary condition for A.
    Well it means the same thing then. (The existence of) Feeling implies (the existence of) emotion, and social relationships and values imply emotional attachments. "Implies" means that A is a sufficient condition for B, which means that if you have A you must have B. Everyday language weakens this to mean "strongly suggests," but that doesn't contradict my point, it only makes it say something weaker. Regardless, there's an association, and I'm trying to say there is a necessary association.

    Whatever system of language you use, the argument remains the same.

  2. #122
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Well it means the same thing then. (The existence of) Feeling implies (the existence of) emotion, and social relationships and values imply emotional attachments. "Implies" means that A is a sufficient condition for B, which means that if you have A you must have B. Everyday language weakens this to mean "strongly suggests," but that doesn't contradict my point, it only makes it say something weaker. Regardless, there's an association, and I'm trying to say there is a necessary association.

    Whatever system of language you use, the argument remains the same.
    "A is a sufficient condition for B, which means that if you have A you must have B" is wrong, and its not a question of language or semantics. The first clause denotes sufficiency; in the second clause, "must have" implies necessity. There is a big difference, conceptually and not semantically.

    This mistake, along with others like it, explains why I have doubted that you are an INTP, and from your first OP on your type I thought you were INFJ with tertiary Ti.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #123
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    "A is a sufficient condition for B, which means that if you have A you must have B" is wrong, and its not a question of language or semantics. The first clause denotes sufficiency; in the second clause, "must have" implies necessity. There is a big difference, conceptually and not semantically.

    This mistake, along with others like it, explains why I have doubted that you are an INTP, and from your first OP on your type I thought you were INFJ with tertiary Ti.
    It's not wrong. I took a formal logic class and got an A in it.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessity_and_sufficiency
    Necessary and sufficient conditions in conditional statements describe the relationship between the antecedent and the consequent.

    If a faulty idea about how formal logic works causes you to inaccurately assess my logical skills, and that's the only thing causing you to type me one thing rather than another, perhaps you should reconsider. But I don't care.

  4. #124
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    It's not wrong. I took a formal logic class and got an A in it.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessity_and_sufficiency
    Necessary and sufficient conditions in conditional statements describe the relationship between the antecedent and the consequent.

    If a faulty idea about how formal logic works causes you to inaccurately assess my logical skills, and that's the only thing causing you to type me one thing rather than another, perhaps you should reconsider. But I don't care.
    It would be wiser to cite the exact location in that Wiki article which explains why your logic is correct. Also, getting an A in a logic class does not entail your being correct in any particular argument.

    And, "A is a sufficient condition for B, which means that if you have A you must have B" would be more accurately written, "A is a sufficient condition for B, which means that if you have B you must have A."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #125
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Whatever my type may be, and whether or not you agree with the system of notation I used to express my argument, can you adequately argue with the following, or are our fine discussions of the feeling function going to be put into the graveyard for off topic posts? I am arguing this because the loose (though necessary) association is why they have questions on tests conflating the two, but I am agreeing with another poster that the association is too strong and the questions should be reworded. It's too strong because they are confusing an existential necessity with some sort of direct correlation. The existence of emotions in general being a necessary condition for Feeling (which everyone has) doesn't mean that whenever a person makes a feeling judgment s/he is feeling an emotion, except in a fundamental underlying sense, meaning that person has emotional attachments to things- not in the sense of being physiologically aroused at that moment.

    So point number 1: Feeling does not equal emotion.
    Point number 2: Feeling is more associated with emotion than thinking.
    3: This is true because: The existence of emotion in people in general, over the course of the lifespan, is necessary for feeling judgments.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Well, think about it: everything is based to some extent on emotion, because it's our instinctual reaction to our environment. It gauges the quality of relationships. Feeling judgments and values wouldn't exist without emotions. Values and social connections are based on emotional attachments. Emotion is necessary for Feeling (both Fe and Fi, and Feeling in general), but not for Thinking in the strictly logical sense, although it is necessary for judgements based on objective values. So emotion is still more associated with Feeling.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    (Social relationships & values) require emotional attachments
    Feeling requires emotion

  6. #126
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    It would be wiser to cite the exact location in that Wiki article which explains why your logic is correct. Also, getting an A in a logic class does not entail your being correct in any particular argument.
    It doesn't entail it, but it implies it.

    Here's the link again:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessity_and_sufficiency
    Here's another one from a more credible source:
    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/necessary-sufficient/

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    And, "A is a sufficient condition for B, which means that if you have A you must have B" would be more accurately written, "A is a sufficient condition for B, which means that if you have B you must have A."
    Incorrect.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    exact location in that Wiki article
    Well, I don't know how to do that. Sorry. The one from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is pretty easy to follow.

  7. #127
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    It doesn't entail it, but it implies it.

    Here's the link again:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessity_and_sufficiency
    Here's another one from a more credible source:
    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/necessary-sufficient/


    Incorrect.

    Edit:

    Well, I don't know how to do that. Sorry. The one from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is pretty easy to follow.
    I liked the part of the Wiki article which showed that A --> B means "A implies B," just as I said.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #128
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    It doesn't entail it, but it implies it.

    Here's the link again:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessity_and_sufficiency
    Here's another one from a more credible source:
    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/necessary-sufficient/


    Incorrect.

    Edit:

    Well, I don't know how to do that. Sorry. The one from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is pretty easy to follow.
    Just a simply copy/paste from the Wiki article would be good.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #129
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Whatever my type may be, and whether or not you agree with the system of notation I used to express my argument, can you adequately argue with the following, or are our fine discussions of the feeling function going to be put into the graveyard for off topic posts? I am arguing this because the loose (though necessary) association is why they have questions on tests conflating the two, but I am agreeing with another poster that the association is too strong and the questions should be reworded. It's too strong because they are confusing an existential necessity with some sort of direct correlation. The existence of emotions in general being a necessary condition for Feeling (which everyone has) doesn't mean that whenever a person makes a feeling judgment s/he is feeling an emotion, except in a fundamental underlying sense, meaning that person has emotional attachments to things- not in the sense of being physiologically aroused at that moment.

    So point number 1: Feeling does not equal emotion.
    Point number 2: Feeling is more associated with emotion than thinking.
    3: This is true because: The existence of emotion in people in general, over the course of the lifespan, is necessary for feeling judgments.
    Thanks for making your argument clearer this time. I don't see any difference between an emotion and a feeling-judgment. Because when you have an emotion about something, this was always preceded by a subconscious judgment or evaluation.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #130
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I liked the part of the Wiki article which showed that A --> B means "A implies B," just as I said.
    And you are entirely missing the point which is that implication in formal logic means a certain relationship between the antecedent and the consequent. But if you want to shut off your Ne to protect your Ti, I can't stop you.

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