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  1. #141
    Member fduniho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    I actually thought you were saying this. Here is how I got there. You are saying that ethics is about "reason" as your argument for it not being about feeling.
    No, I was not saying that. I was arguing that feeling cannot be defined as being about ethics, because reason can also be used to make ethical judgments. Both thinking and feeling can be used to make ethical judgments, and ethics is not the exclusive domain of either of these functions. Also, both can be used to make non-ethical judgments. For example, I use thinking to debug programs, and I sometimes use feeling to decide what music to listen to.

    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    Therefore you are separating reason from feeling as two different things.
    I would distinguish between thinking, which is a conscious use of reason, and feeling, which operates partly at an unconscious level but may still follow rational or quasi-rational procedures. Feeling is faster than thinking, but this can make it more prone to error. One difference between thinking and feeling is that feeling is more associative than thinking is. Feeling may notice similarities between things and jump to the conclusion that they are similar in other respects, such as when you meet someone who reminds you of someone you don't like. To some extent, feelings can be trained to be more rational, sort of like a dog being trained by a human. This is where virtue ethics comes in, where there is a conscious effort to adjust the feeling response to a mean between a deficiency and an excess, as in Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics I'll also point out that Antonio Damasio has argued in his book Descartes' Error that emotion plays an important role in rationality. As I recall from reading the book, people who were brain-damaged in ways that cut themselves off from emotional awareness behaved less rationally than other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    Your example of emotion here makes me think we are arguing semantics. I don't think of "like" and "dislike" as emotions. To me emotions are things more like worried, afraid, happy, sad, etc. Like and dislike are the result of some kind of value judgment. Maybe we just have a terminology problem.
    I normally feel emotional bonds toward people I like and emotional aversions toward people I dislike. So I don't think the difference is merely semantic. Also, the examples you give of emotions also involve value judgments. So I don't think there is such a clear-cut distinction between emotions and value judgments.

  2. #142
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fduniho View Post
    If I've said anything contradictory, please point it out.
    You try and equate the Feeling type's use of emotion with the feeling functions themselves. If Fi is "motivated by deeply-held moral values" - where are the values coming from? How are they developed? If it is Fe's "goal" to form & maintain "easy and harmonious emotional relationships with other people" - where is that goal coming from? WHY has Fe valued that emotional effect enough to make it a goal? Again - do you think Feelers work off emotion like an animal does instinct? You did not answer that question before.

    I have read Gifts Differing, and when not taken out of context & twisted through interpretation, it never suggests that the Feeling functions are simply emotion. Carl Jung especially does not state or suggest this.

    No, Fi & Fe are not simply concerned with morality, nor is morality the sole domain of feeling, but that does not mean they are not RATIONAL REASONING COGNITIVE FUNCTIONS.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #143
    Member fduniho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    You try and equate the Feeling type's use of emotion with the feeling functions themselves. If Fi is "motivated by deeply-held moral values" - where are the values coming from? How are they developed? If it is Fe's "goal" to form & maintain "easy and harmonious emotional relationships with other people" - where is that goal coming from? WHY has Fe valued that emotional effect enough to make it a goal? Again - do you think Feelers work off emotion like an animal does instinct? You did not answer that question before.
    You're posing questions, but you are not pointing out contradictions.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I have read Gifts Differing, and when not taken out of context & twisted through interpretation, it never suggests that the Feeling functions are simply emotion. Carl Jung especially does not state or suggest this.
    I don't recall saying that the feeling functions are simply emotion. What I did say is "As understood by both Myers and Myers, Fe and Fi are different ways of using and managing emotions." I was mainly responding to the claim that they are not about emotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    No, Fi & Fe are not simply concerned with morality, nor is morality the sole domain of feeling, but that does not mean they are not RATIONAL REASONING COGNITIVE FUNCTIONS.
    I have already addressed why feeling is rational in the Jungian sense and why it is not necessarily irrational in the English sense. But whether it involves reasoning is another matter. One of the differences between thinking and feeling is that thinking makes itself explicitly visible, but feeling is a black box. Thinking will set out premises and explain, step-by-step if need be, how its conclusions logically follow. Thinking can easily explain itself and give others the same reasons for thinking the same. But feeling often leaves the question, why do I feel this way? This is because feeling works subconsciously. You can know what you feel much more easily than you can know why you feel it.

    Feeling has some advantages over thinking. It is faster, and there is normally a stronger connection between feeling and action than there is between thinking and action. But these advantages do have their costs. One is that you cannot verify the validity of a feeling like you can the validity of an argument. This gives thinking a greater degree of error checking than feeling, and it allows thinking to reach true conclusions more reliably. Whether or not feeling uses reasoning is hard to determine, because the subconscious processes that produce feeling judgments are not made explicit in the same way that logical reasoning is.

    In discussing the relation between feeling and emotion, Aleksei described a feeling type as "a person who makes choices based on what they in their gut feel is right or wrong; on ideals." This brings up an important distinction that gets covered in the Enneagram but not in Jung or the MBTI. The Enneagram types are divided into three groups, what Richard Rohr calls the Head, Heart, and Gut types. There is an important distinction to be made between emotions and gut feelings. I don't think Jung ever did it justice. This leaves open the question of whether feeling is about emotions, gut feelings, or both clumped together. It may be that the Enneagram's tripartite distinction is more accurate than Jung's binary distinction between thinking and feeling.

  4. #144
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Tried this again (rather carefully)

    Your scores are not in full agreement regarding your type. Using a decision procedure that ranks the relative strength of your preferences, the best estimate of your type is INTP.

    Here are your more detailed results, preference by preference.

    Introversion: 34 / 13
    Extraversion: 25 / 13

    Intuition: 43 / 17
    Sensing: 22 / 17

    Thinking: 34 / 20
    Feeling: 45 / 20

    Perceiving: 29 / 16
    Judging: 33 / 16

    Dominant Judger: 29 / 11
    Dominant Perceiver: 14 / 11

    Introverted Sensing: 8 / 6
    Extraverted Sensing: 17 / 6

    Introverted Intuition: 5 / 5
    Extraverted Intuition: 18 / 5

    Introverted Thinking: 14 / 5
    Extraverted Thinking: 4 / 5

    Introverted Feeling: 22 / 11
    Extraverted Feeling: 23 / 11



    This test has a bias toward INTP. This bias has shown up in the analysis of actual scores provided by people who know their type, and I predicted it beforehand on the grounds that I am an INTP, and there might be some bias toward my own type. Based on an analysis of actual results, it appears that many INFJs, INFPs, and ENTPs are scoring as INTPs. So, I urge you to regard your results with skepticism and also look into the possibility that you are one of these three types.



    The Ni vs Ne questions kind of threw me off the most..

  5. #145
    Peaced Quay's Avatar
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    Your scores are not in full agreement regarding your type. Using a decision procedure that ranks the relative strength of your preferences, the best estimate of your type is INFJ.

    Here are your more detailed results, preference by preference.

    Introversion: 37 / 12
    Extraversion: 4 / 12

    Intuition: 42 / 15
    Sensing: 16 / 15

    Thinking: 18 / 18
    Feeling: 45 / 18

    Perceiving: 30 / 15
    Judging: 15 / 15

    Dominant Judger: 19 / 8
    Dominant Perceiver: 12 / 8

    Introverted Sensing: 8 / 6
    Extraverted Sensing: 15 / 6

    Introverted Intuition: 8 / 4
    Extraverted Intuition: 8 / 4

    Introverted Thinking: 11 / 4
    Extraverted Thinking: 4 / 4

    Introverted Feeling: 8 / 9
    Extraverted Feeling: 27 / 9

    *to add, I answered "no" to knowing my type....i still don't think I'm INFJ.

  6. #146
    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    Introversion: 38/13
    Extraversion: 6/13

    Intuition: 15/15
    Sensing: 25/15

    Thinking: 16/20
    Feeling: 48/20

    Perceiving: 38/14
    Judging: 10/14

    Dominant Judger: 24/10
    Dominant Perceiver: 10/10

    Introverted Sensing: 16/6
    Extraverted Sensing: 2/6

    Introverted Intuition: 8/4
    Extraverted Intuition: 7/4

    Introverted Thinking: 14/4
    Extraverted Thinking: 0/4

    Introverted Feeling: 29/9
    Extraverted Feeling: 3/9
    Every time I take this test, I get ISFP with conflicting scores. Guess I'll just have to settle for being an ISFP with insane Si or something.

  7. #147
    The Duchess of Oddity Queen Kat's Avatar
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    Jesus Christ, I shouldn't made that test. Focussing for so long killed my brain!




    Your scores are not in full agreement regarding your type. Using a decision procedure that ranks the relative strength of your preferences, the best estimate of your type is ENTP.

    Here are your more detailed results, preference by preference.

    Introversion: 15 / 13
    Extraversion: 23 / 13

    Intuition: 33 / 17
    Sensing: 30 / 17

    Thinking: 49 / 19
    Feeling: 14 / 19

    Perceiving: 39 / 16
    Judging: 18 / 16

    Dominant Judger: 6 / 11
    Dominant Perceiver: 30 / 11

    Introverted Sensing: 18 / 6
    Extraverted Sensing: 10 / 6

    Introverted Intuition: 2 / 5
    Extraverted Intuition: 17 / 5

    Introverted Thinking: 10 / 5
    Extraverted Thinking: 12 / 5

    Introverted Feeling: 28 / 11
    Extraverted Feeling: 16 / 11


    Te/Ti and Fe/Fi were conflicting
    I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower. The TV was obviously on. I used to fly myself and I said, "There's one terrible pilot."
    - George W. Bush -


    SCUAI - 7w8 sx/sp - Chaotic Evil - Fucking Cute - ALIVE

    Blog. Read it, bitches.
    Questions? Click here
    If you don't agree about my MBTI type, you can complain about it here. I've had plenty of people telling me I'm something else, in my reputation box. That's annoying.

  8. #148
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    tonight: ENFP with more Ti than Te

  9. #149
    Senior Member Silveresque's Avatar
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    INTP

    Introversion: 55 / 12
    Extraversion: 4 / 12

    Intuition: 27 / 17
    Sensing: 22 / 17

    Thinking: 33 / 18
    Feeling: 25 / 18

    Perceiving: 40 / 13
    Judging: 9 / 13

    Dominant Judger: 29 / 9
    Dominant Perceiver: 11 / 9

    Introverted Sensing: 13 / 6
    Extraverted Sensing: 5 / 6

    Introverted Intuition: 15 / 5
    Extraverted Intuition: 7 / 5

    Introverted Thinking: 10 / 4
    Extraverted Thinking: 0 / 4

    Introverted Feeling: 17 / 10
    Extraverted Feeling: 28 / 10

    I came out more Fe than Fi. That's interesting....

  10. #150
    libtard SJW chickpea's Avatar
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    Your scores are not in full agreement regarding your type. Using a decision procedure that ranks the relative strength of your preferences, the best estimate of your type is INFP.

    Here are your more detailed results, preference by preference.
    Introversion: 28 / 13
    Extraversion: 16 / 13

    Intuition: 43 / 17
    Sensing: 3 / 17

    Thinking: 8 / 20
    Feeling: 42 / 20

    Perceiving: 59 / 16
    Judging: 0 / 16

    Dominant Judger: 16 / 11
    Dominant Perceiver: 17 / 11

    Introverted Sensing: 17 / 6
    Extraverted Sensing: 3 / 6

    Introverted Intuition: 11 / 5
    Extraverted Intuition: 9 / 5

    Introverted Thinking: 7 / 5
    Extraverted Thinking: 6 / 5

    Introverted Feeling: 26 / 11
    Extraverted Feeling: 11 / 11

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