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  1. #121
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    Your whole paragraph about ethics and reason above is still based on your belief that feeling is an emotional irrational process. I don't see how saying ethics is based on reason means it is outside the realm of feeling.

    I don't know how to answer your question about my experience with Fi. And it is even harder when we haven't even agreed on a definition of Fi. I am not sure what you are asking me for.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by fduniho View Post
    One of the small things I don't like about Socionics is its use of the word ethical in place of feeling. Although I know you're talking about MBTI here, you're making the same error. Fi and Fe are not about different ways of managing ethical values. Ethics is as much the domain of thinking as it is of feeling. Nor is ethics all about values; it is also about principles. Anyway, my experience with Fe has nothing to do with favoring societally-held values over personal values. It has more to do with what effects evoke emotional responses. My emotional responses normally arise from external stimuli, particularly expressions of emotion. I can be affected by music and drama to feel certain emotions, but I'm not nearly as inclined to have emotional responses to news stories. I think it takes some kind of well of Fi to start getting emotional over news stories. For example, I'm aware of people who started crying all day when the Twin Towers were knocked down on 9/11, but I had no particular emotional response to this myself. Of course, I understand that it was a morally wrong thing to do and that the consequences were tragic for many people. But my emotions did not get drawn into this. But I have sometimes felt sad when a fictional character I liked died on a TV show, because the drama of the show evoked emotional responses to the character. One of the reasons I rely on music and drama as much as I do is that I would have much less of an emotional life without them. I could not easily write about all the emotions Shakespeare does, but I have been susceptible to his descriptions of emotions. In general, it is easier for my emotions to come out when I can find something for them to mirror in the external world. I would describe Fe as working like an emotional mirror, and Fi as working like an emotional well. With respect to emotions, I am more of a mirror than a well. What is extraverted about this, is that it enables emotional sychronization with other people.
    I think there might be some truth to this, but it's not the whole story.



    This is more in line with my understanding of Fi and Fe than what you've attributed to MBTI, though I wouldn't say it is the whole picture.

    Let me give an example of what I think may illustrate the difference between Fi and Fe. I love Girl's Generation, a Korean pop group also known as SNSD, because their music makes me feel good. But I can imagine that some Fi person might hate them for being trite and shallow, which happens to violate her personal values. I don't care so much about that. What matters to me is that their music is infectiously fun and happy.

    To give an example at the opposite end, I hate Marilyn Manson, not because he violates my personal values, but because his music is dreadful. Yet I can imagine some Fi person who likes Marilyn Manson because there is something about him that resonates with his personal values.
    I'm sorry, but this is totally wrong. People with Fi can like things which are shallow just for being fun and infectiously happy, and some people actually *do* like the way Marilyn Manson's music sounds, even if you don't.

    Fe and Fi are about ethics. It's not just about the source of feelings.

  3. #123
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Fi has "feeling"/ethics/values on almost anything imaginable (I mean, if they're completely at a loss on how to encounter some situations, they will rely on another function, but Fi goes beyond mere ethics and has rights and wrongs even about cereal or vacation ideas or choosing one dating prospect over another or whether they make a chord progression from G to C or G to A).

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    Quote Originally Posted by fduniho View Post
    I would say that is very simplified. Having studied ethics while working on my Ph.D. in Philosophy, I can tell you that reason plays a large role in ethics. Some philosophers, such as Kant, believed that ethics was entirely about reason. I don't go that far, but I recognize the importance of consistency and universalizability in evaluating right and wrong. The Utilitarians believed we could know right from wrong through some kind of hedonic calculus. I don't agree with them, but I do recognize that understanding consequences can play an important role in telling right from wrong. In The Wrath of Kahn, for example, Spock sacrifices his own life because he logically recognizes that the good of the many outweighs the good of the few. So I do not recognize the feeling function as being particularly about moral values. My own moral values are rooted in my sense that life, both mine and others, is worthwhile, and this is personal in the sense that it is deeply rooted in my experience of life. To put it another way, I do not value life simply because other people do; I value life because I recognize that it is good.
    Of course there is a practical and rational basis for ethics. However, the fine details of ethical reason isn't pure logic. I'm going to echo stalemate in saying that you are mistaken if you believe that Fe and Fi are not rational ethical processes. A T can be every bit as emotional as an F. It's not only about being emotional.

    Anyway, you have told me how you understand Fi and Fe, but you have not told me what your experience of Fi is like. Is your understanding of Fi grounded in your experience? What is it like for you when you are using Fi? Bear in mind that my questions in the DDLI have to work for people who have some basic experience of one or the other preference but who may not have any theoretical understanding of the distinction between the two preferences. So what would particularly help me come up with good questions is getting a better understanding of what the experience of my non-preferences is like.

    I'll link here to a couple videos that help illustrate my understanding of Fi and Fe. These two videos show an incredible difference between the two. To avoid spoilers, I'll wait until another message to say more.
    OMGZ I love that Gee video with the Asian chicks. That music is just catchy as hell. I don't think the music makes it Fe, but I would agree that the choreographed images in the video do.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Fi has "feeling"/ethics/values on almost anything imaginable (I mean, if they're completely at a loss on how to encounter some situations, they will rely on another function, but Fi goes beyond mere ethics and has rights and wrongs even about cereal or vacation ideas or choosing one dating prospect over another or whether they make a chord progression from G to C or G to A).
    So... If there is a right order in which to eat my meal, is that Fi or OCD?

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    So... If there is a right order in which to eat my meal, is that Fi or OCD?
    I believe that would be Si.

  7. #127
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Depends if you were consistently anal about it maybe. I have no idea.. I can only speak for myself. I eat in the order I feel like at the time. Fi is pretty mutable with minor things.. Food choices, I don't know. That's small potatoes (har).

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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I believe that would be Si.
    Really? Interesting. I have always done it that way. Eating one thing after another in the "right order" until they are all gone. It is only once in a while that I can do something bold like take a bite of my burger before I finish my fries. It just feels wrong. everyone says I am weird.

  9. #129
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Btw, I could still be ISFP, so take how I relate FP-ness with a grain of salt.

    Usually with food though, I *think* Si may kick off for people if it's too different. To get around it, their mind doesn't go "Se" and take in the appearance, or aroma of the food itself..some present circumstance related issue. They'd hint their way around in questions, wondering if it's OK.. who made it, what is it, etc.. As for the order in how you eat, maybe it could just be some personal quirk on your part. Or maybe Te

  10. #130
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fduniho View Post
    One of the small things I don't like about Socionics is its use of the word ethical in place of feeling. Although I know you're talking about MBTI here, you're making the same error. Fi and Fe are not about different ways of managing ethical values. Ethics is as much the domain of thinking as it is of feeling. Nor is ethics all about values; it is also about principles. Anyway, my experience with Fe has nothing to do with favoring societally-held values over personal values. It has more to do with what effects evoke emotional responses. My emotional responses normally arise from external stimuli, particularly expressions of emotion. I can be affected by music and drama to feel certain emotions, but I'm not nearly as inclined to have emotional responses to news stories. I think it takes some kind of well of Fi to start getting emotional over news stories. For example, I'm aware of people who started crying all day when the Twin Towers were knocked down on 9/11, but I had no particular emotional response to this myself. Of course, I understand that it was a morally wrong thing to do and that the consequences were tragic for many people. But my emotions did not get drawn into this. But I have sometimes felt sad when a fictional character I liked died on a TV show, because the drama of the show evoked emotional responses to the character. One of the reasons I rely on music and drama as much as I do is that I would have much less of an emotional life without them. I could not easily write about all the emotions Shakespeare does, but I have been susceptible to his descriptions of emotions. In general, it is easier for my emotions to come out when I can find something for them to mirror in the external world. I would describe Fe as working like an emotional mirror, and Fi as working like an emotional well. With respect to emotions, I am more of a mirror than a well. What is extraverted about this, is that it enables emotional sychronization with other people.
    The problem is that you're letting yourself be guided by the very word "feeling" and making the common mistake of equating the function to emotions. It isn't. As Jung originally defined it, Feeling is rooted in values, rather than emotions. A Feeler type is not an emotional person -- T types can be emotional -- but rather a person who makes choices based on what they in their gut feel is right or wrong; on ideals.

    This is more in line with my understanding of Fi and Fe than what you've attributed to MBTI, though I wouldn't say it is the whole picture.
    That basically means your understanding of Fi and Fe is wrong. No offense. Here's the actual definition of Fi and Fe:

    Introverted Feeling

    It is often hard to assign words to the values used to make introverted Feeling judgments since they are often associated with images, feeling tones, and gut reactions more than words. As a cognitive process, it often serves as a filter for information that matches what is valued, wanted, or worth believing in. There can be a continual weighing of the situational worth or importance of everything and a patient balancing of the core issues of peace and conflict in life’s situations. We engage in the process of introverted Feeling when a value is compromised and we think, “Sometimes, some things just have to be said.” On the other hand, most of the time this process works “in private” and is expressed through actions. It helps us know when people are being fake or insincere or if they are basically good. It is like having an internal sense of the “essence” of a person or a project and reading fine distinctions among feeling tones.
    Extraverted Feeling

    The process of extraverted Feeling often involves a desire to connect with (or disconnect from) others and is often evidenced by expressions of warmth (or displeasure) and self-disclosure. The “social graces,” such as being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate, often revolve around the process of extraverted Feeling. Keeping in touch, laughing at jokes when others laugh, and trying to get people to act kindly to each other also involve extraverted Feeling. Using this process, we respond according to expressed or even unexpressed wants and needs of others. We may ask people what they want or need or self-disclose to prompt them to talk more about themselves. This often sparks conversation and lets us know more about them so we can better adjust our behavior to them. Often with this process, we feel pulled to be responsible and take care of others’ feelings, sometimes to the point of not separating our feelings from theirs. We may recognize and adhere to shared values, feelings, and social norms to get along.
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