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  1. #111
    Senior Member Anamalech's Avatar
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    Interesting.

    Taken together, your scores indicate that you are an INTJ. There was either some slight conflict between related scores, or some of your scores were insufficient to fully confirm your preferences. Check below for details. Here are your more detailed results, preference by preference

    Introversion: 34 / 11
    Extraversion: 12 / 11

    Intuition: 69 / 17
    Sensing: 4 / 17

    Thinking: 35 / 20
    Feeling: 34 / 20

    Perceiving: 17 / 16
    Judging: 38 / 16

    Dominant Judger: 12 / 11
    Dominant Perceiver: 22 / 11

    Introverted Sensing: 22 / 6
    Extraverted Sensing: 4 / 6

    Introverted Intuition: 16 / 5
    Extraverted Intuition: 3 / 5

    Introverted Thinking: 12 / 5
    Extraverted Thinking: 6 / 5

    Introverted Feeling: 23 / 11
    Extraverted Feeling: 17 / 11

    This test is bullshit.

  2. #112
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    Got these results the most consistently after taking the test a couple times:


    At first, got XXXP, XXXJ... then got INFP, then INTP... then INTJ was the one that seemed the most permanent.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Johari/Nohari

    “Thoughts are the shadows of our feelings -- always darker, emptier and simpler.”
    ― Friedrich Nietzsche




  3. #113
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fduniho View Post
    They are no more separate than two different interpretations of the Enneagram. Both are rooted in the work of Jung, and each uses a four-letter code to identify the 16 subtypes originally described by Jung. There is some variation in the code used, but they identify exactly the same 16 Jungian subtypes. Therefore, there is a one-to-one match between MBTI types and Socionics types. There may be differences in MBTI results and Socionics test results, but these are only differences in test results. There is a difference between your true type, which is what the tests are trying to determine, and what type you test as. Although there are some differences in the systems, these seem to be complementary differences of focus, not fundamental contradictions. As far as I can tell, Socionics is no more different from MBTI than Keirsey's system is. MBTI, Keirsey, and Socionics are all elaborating on the original work of Jung, and they should be understood as complementary, not as fundamentally different systems.
    They're all based on the work of Jung, but they all have radically different methodologies, which makes them separate, even if they are indeed closely related. Socionics is very different from MBTI, for a few reasons, including:

    Socionics' interpretation of Jung's functions is actually very slightly different from the functions as originally described by Jung, because while Jung's functions were originally described as symbols for different styles of thought, Socionics functions (which Socionics itself calls "Information Metabolism" elements), are more concerned with how an individual interacts with his environment. This is most apparent when comparing Fi/Fe as it is used in the two systems: In MBTI, Fi and Fe are two different ways to manage ethical values (Fi users make choices on basis on a personal set of ethical or aesthetic, etc. values whereas Fe users make choices based on societally-held values -- what other people think is right); whereas in Socionics Fi and Fe refer more to a person's focus on interpersonal relationships. Socionics Fi valuers like making very deep and committed emotional connections with a few people, whereas Fe valuers prefer to focus on a cheerful, easygoing pace of things -- which is why socionics buffs sometimes refer to enjoying "an Fe atmosphere," for example. Many MBTI Fi users greatly value Socionics Fe relationships, and often identify more with Alpha Quadra (or Beta Quadra for that matter) than Delta Quadra.

    Socionics is further separated from MBTI by its inclusion of Freudian theories on the conscious and unconscious (ego, super-ego, id, and super-id especially). Socionics integrates Freudian conscience categories by dividing Jungian functions into "blocks," and thus separating perception-judgment processes by both skill of use and preference, and thus assigning them a role. Functions are classified as strong and valued (ego), weak and valued (super-id), strong but unvalued (id), and weak and unvalued (super-ego).

    And then of course there's the most obvious difference: The J/P switch. In socionics, Perception versus Judgment is interpreted as the Peceiving or Judging function being the base (dominant) function, rather than it being the extroverted function, so the dominant and auxiliary are switched for introverts: Ni-Te is INTJ and INTp for example. In some correlations this tends not to matter because the functions are different enough that they still directly correlate (ISTP and ISTJ for example -- Socionics Si is closest to MBTI Se and Socionics Se is closest to MBTI Te), but in some cases the switch is crucial -- INTPs are very rarely INTp.

    It's also funny you should mention Keirsey being as equivalent to MBTI as Socionics, because, erm... it actually is (that is to say, Keirsey isn't exactly equivalent either). While Socionics loses equivalence to MBTI by being a more complex personality inventory, Keirsey does by being much shallower in its analysis. It eschews the functions completely and assigns role variants based on expressed behavior which is supposedly correlated to the functions -- and while oftentimes expressed behavior does equate to Jungian types, it doesn't always -- ENTJ Administrators and ISFP Healers in particular are quite commonplace. Some P types with more J-ish Enneagram motivations often end up with Judgment-based role variants: Our very own Magic Poriferan, for example, (1w9 sx/sp) is likely an INTP Inspector.

    So in conclusion, yes, all those systems are based on Jung's ideas, but that does not mean they are the same. In the end they are all personality inventories, and inherently limited by virtue of precisely that. Thus, the only way for one to align to one single type in all Jung-based typology systems is for one to fit every single trait ascribed to that type. Basically, to be a walking stereotype of that type.

    As for treating the different types as "complementary" to Jung's original work, that's actually a bad idea, because it works under the very common and very retarded assumption that Jungian types are a naturally occurring phenomenon. All Jungian types are are personality inventories: sets of traits that the common person is presumed to fall under. Each interpretation of that system adds traits or subtracts traits from the previous, which means that since the majority of people don't fit perfectly into one type, different traits from different types working on the same basic framework could fit one single person. The same could be said of different interpretations of Enneagram: If they are different enough they might as well be different systems based on each other.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Teacher (Idyllic), ESE-IEI (Si-ESFj), SLue|I|, Sanguine-Melancholy
    Sage, True Neutral (Chaotic Good), Type III Anti-Hero
    Inventive > Artistic > Leisurely > Dramatic
    7w6 > 4w3 > 9w8, weakside sp/so

    Dark Worker (Sacrificing)
    Freewheeling Designer

    Hayekian Asshole


  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by fduniho View Post
    It may be that the test is biased toward INTP, because I wrote the questions, and I am an INTP.
    But I recognize these questiions -- haven't I seen them on some other test?

    Quote Originally Posted by fduniho View Post
    it would help to get suggestions for questions, particularly on the cognitive processes, from people who do not share my preferences.
    Hmmm. I'd love to help if I knew how . . . what I find with many tests is that I can't put the questions in a context to know what to answer. Sometimes I think it would help if some questions had some kind of optional clickable box with an explanation or a couple of examples ("in x situation, how do you typically react? How about y situation?") Then again, maybe that would tend to be too leading and defeat the test itself? And, looking over your questions, I didn't find too many (or maybe I have a better idea of how to answer since I find myself watching how I act after reading other questions so I know how to answer next test?)

    Are people's results posted here helping your project? Should I paste mine here?

  5. #115
    Member fduniho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    This is most apparent when comparing Fi/Fe as it is used in the two systems: In MBTI, Fi and Fe are two different ways to manage ethical values (Fi users make choices on basis on a personal set of ethical or aesthetic, etc. values whereas Fe users make choices based on societally-held values -- what other people think is right);
    One of the small things I don't like about Socionics is its use of the word ethical in place of feeling. Although I know you're talking about MBTI here, you're making the same error. Fi and Fe are not about different ways of managing ethical values. Ethics is as much the domain of thinking as it is of feeling. Nor is ethics all about values; it is also about principles. Anyway, my experience with Fe has nothing to do with favoring societally-held values over personal values. It has more to do with what effects evoke emotional responses. My emotional responses normally arise from external stimuli, particularly expressions of emotion. I can be affected by music and drama to feel certain emotions, but I'm not nearly as inclined to have emotional responses to news stories. I think it takes some kind of well of Fi to start getting emotional over news stories. For example, I'm aware of people who started crying all day when the Twin Towers were knocked down on 9/11, but I had no particular emotional response to this myself. Of course, I understand that it was a morally wrong thing to do and that the consequences were tragic for many people. But my emotions did not get drawn into this. But I have sometimes felt sad when a fictional character I liked died on a TV show, because the drama of the show evoked emotional responses to the character. One of the reasons I rely on music and drama as much as I do is that I would have much less of an emotional life without them. I could not easily write about all the emotions Shakespeare does, but I have been susceptible to his descriptions of emotions. In general, it is easier for my emotions to come out when I can find something for them to mirror in the external world. I would describe Fe as working like an emotional mirror, and Fi as working like an emotional well. With respect to emotions, I am more of a mirror than a well. What is extraverted about this, is that it enables emotional sychronization with other people.

    whereas in Socionics Fi and Fe refer more to a person's focus on interpersonal relationships. Socionics Fi valuers like making very deep and committed emotional connections with a few people, whereas Fe valuers prefer to focus on a cheerful, easygoing pace of things -- which is why socionics buffs sometimes refer to enjoying "an Fe atmosphere," for example.
    This is more in line with my understanding of Fi and Fe than what you've attributed to MBTI, though I wouldn't say it is the whole picture.

    Let me give an example of what I think may illustrate the difference between Fi and Fe. I love Girl's Generation, a Korean pop group also known as SNSD, because their music makes me feel good. But I can imagine that some Fi person might hate them for being trite and shallow, which happens to violate her personal values. I don't care so much about that. What matters to me is that their music is infectiously fun and happy.

    To give an example at the opposite end, I hate Marilyn Manson, not because he violates my personal values, but because his music is dreadful. Yet I can imagine some Fi person who likes Marilyn Manson because there is something about him that resonates with his personal values.

  6. #116
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    I did not think that the feeling functions had anything to do with emotions, and definitely not anything to do with which stimuli cause a person to feel specific emotions.

  7. #117
    Member fduniho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coconut View Post
    Hmmm. I'd love to help if I knew how
    What I've been working on today is a script that will analyze the answers to questions I'm collecting in my database. I plan to begin weeding out the worst questions and replacing them with better ones. Some of the most unreliable questions are for the cognitive processes: Fi vs Fe, Ti vs Te, Ni vs Ne, and Si vs Se. They are all in i vs e form to prevent them from being in N vs S or T vs F form. If you can think of questions that would distinguish any of these preferences, that would be helpful, especially coming from an INTJ, whose preferences are the opposite of mine on these.

    Are people's results posted here helping your project? Should I paste mine here?
    To the extent that it bumps up the thread and continues to give my test exposure, it is helping. But I am not using the data posted here for anything. I am relying on algorithmic analysis of a database. If you would care to look at the results of my script's analysis, you will find it at http://duniho.heliohost.org/ddli/analyze.php

    At the top are a couple type tables in the usual configuration. The one on the left shows how many people have reported themselves to be each type, and the one on the right shows how many people have scored as each type. Below these two tables, there is an analysis of each question. The questions are numbered, and the answers are labeled with the preference they are supposed to be for. On the right are a couple tables. One is another type table, showing the average score of each type for that answer. To the right of that is a group of vertical bars, one for each preference. The height of the bar matches the average answer strength for people with that preference. The number right below is how many people with that preference answered the question in that way. The number below that is the percentage of people with that preference who answered the question in that way. This is probably the most significant value for evaluating the reliability of a question. The bars are mostly blue. A green bar indicates the preference that got the highest percentage of its members choosing it, and a red bar indicates which preference had the lowest percentage choosing it. These give a quick indicator of which answers are working well. Ideally, the same pair of preferences should include a red and green bar, and these colors should be reversed for the other answer. I will eventually be weeding out or modifying the most unreliable questions.

  8. #118
    Member fduniho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    I did not think that the feeling functions had anything to do with emotions, and definitely not anything to do with which stimuli cause a person to feel specific emotions.
    So, what is your understanding of the feeling functions? And what is your experience of Fi as an ENFP?

  9. #119
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fduniho View Post
    So, what is your understanding of the feeling functions? And what is your experience of Fi as an ENFP?
    My understanding is the feeling functions are decision making functions, just like the thinking functions are. I am probably about to oversimplify but basically the feeling functions are used when making decisions based on right vs wrong where the thinking functions operate on something more like logical vs illogical.

    To break down the feeling functions, Fe is based on the values of the group where Fi is based on the values of the individual.

  10. #120
    Member fduniho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    My understanding is the feeling functions are decision making functions, just like the thinking functions are. I am probably about to oversimplify but basically the feeling functions are used when making decisions based on right vs wrong where the thinking functions operate on something more like logical vs illogical.

    To break down the feeling functions, Fe is based on the values of the group where Fi is based on the values of the individual.
    I would say that is very simplified. Having studied ethics while working on my Ph.D. in Philosophy, I can tell you that reason plays a large role in ethics. Some philosophers, such as Kant, believed that ethics was entirely about reason. I don't go that far, but I recognize the importance of consistency and universalizability in evaluating right and wrong. The Utilitarians believed we could know right from wrong through some kind of hedonic calculus. I don't agree with them, but I do recognize that understanding consequences can play an important role in telling right from wrong. In The Wrath of Kahn, for example, Spock sacrifices his own life because he logically recognizes that the good of the many outweighs the good of the few. So I do not recognize the feeling function as being particularly about moral values. My own moral values are rooted in my sense that life, both mine and others, is worthwhile, and this is personal in the sense that it is deeply rooted in my experience of life. To put it another way, I do not value life simply because other people do; I value life because I recognize that it is good.

    Anyway, you have told me how you understand Fi and Fe, but you have not told me what your experience of Fi is like. Is your understanding of Fi grounded in your experience? What is it like for you when you are using Fi? Bear in mind that my questions in the DDLI have to work for people who have some basic experience of one or the other preference but who may not have any theoretical understanding of the distinction between the two preferences. So what would particularly help me come up with good questions is getting a better understanding of what the experience of my non-preferences is like.

    I'll link here to a couple videos that help illustrate my understanding of Fi and Fe. These two videos show an incredible difference between the two. To avoid spoilers, I'll wait until another message to say more.

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