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Thread: High IQ Society

  1. #21
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avis View Post
    I once had a couple of lectures on eduactional psychology. IQ seems to acount for about 25-30% of school achievement, though the lecturer didn't put footnotes in there to state where exactly she got the information from. I think they're taken from this book.
    Another interesting question is exactly how someone has extrapolated that figure. In other words, how can one properly weigh out the factors regarding what contributes to a person's success in school and to what degree. I am not saying that this is impossible to accomplish, but rather that how it can be isn't obvious.

    For instance, a coach of the swimming team may say that 50% of their success was talent and the other 50% was perserverance. This judgment is almost purely intuitive and lacks rigor. Generally when most people make such judgments, they rely on rather imprecise reasoning techniques. Hopefully whoever made that claim about IQ and school performance employed a far more rigorous method of statistical reasoning.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  2. #22
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Yeah... made it.

    YOUR IQ SCORE IS:

    127

    Your score places you in the top five percent of the population. This qualifies you for membership in the International High IQ Society.

  3. #23
    Head Pigeon Mad Hatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Another interesting question is exactly how someone has extrapolated that figure. In other words, how can one properly weigh out the factors regarding what contributes to a person's success in school and to what degree. I am not saying that this is impossible to accomplish, but rather that how it can be isn't obvious.

    For instance, a coach of the swimming team may say that 50% of their success was talent and the other 50% was perserverance. This judgment is almost purely intuitive and lacks rigor. Generally when most people make such judgments, they rely on rather imprecise reasoning techniques. Hopefully whoever made that claim about IQ and school performance employed a far more rigorous method of statistical reasoning.
    You're quite right. I have to admit that it's absolutely not my field of expertise and the presentation we were given had to be simplified accordingly. It was more geared towards teaching methods in general and more or less wanted to raise awareness of the issue. (If you know German, I could send you a PDF though). I do believe however that the results presented there had methodical rigor.

    A whole lot other things have to be factored in as determinants of school achievement such as perception of one's own abilities and motivation, which is probably the one factor which can be influenced the most. Since it isn't exactly what I'm studying, I didn't pursue the matter further.
    IN SERIO FATVITAS.

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  4. #24
    Senior Member aeon's Avatar
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    132. Whatever.

    I was administered the Stanford-Binet when I was 10 years old. My (high) score started a roller-coaster ride of events that overall, I did not enjoy. I was treated as something other than a person.

    I've felt embarrassed about it since so I don't share the number. I don't want to be judged/made fun of/excluded/talked about/treated differently.


    cheers,
    Ian

  5. #25
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeon View Post
    132. Whatever.

    I was administered the Stanford-Binet when I was 10 years old. My (high) score started a roller-coaster ride of events that overall, I did not enjoy. I was treated as something other than a person.

    I've felt embarrassed about it since so I don't share the number. I don't want to be judged/made fun of/excluded/talked about/treated differently.


    cheers,
    Ian
    Haha that sucks. They put me in retar... class for special people for 5 years until they found out I am shitting them. But god damnit never had it that easy in school again
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #26
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Haha that sucks. They put me in retar... class for special people for 5 years until they found out I am shitting them. But god damnit never had it that easy in school again
    I usually have a hard time figuring out if you are serious or kidding.

  7. #27
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avis View Post
    You're quite right. I have to admit that it's absolutely not my field of expertise and the presentation we were given had to be simplified accordingly. It was more geared towards teaching methods in general and more or less wanted to raise awareness of the issue. (If you know German, I could send you a PDF though). I do believe however that the results presented there had methodical rigor.

    A whole lot other things have to be factored in as determinants of school achievement such as perception of one's own abilities and motivation, which is probably the one factor which can be influenced the most. Since it isn't exactly what I'm studying, I didn't pursue the matter further.

    Unfortunately I do not know German, as I would be interested in reading the article directly. Lets suppose that the method was statistically refined rather than a mere crude intuitive judgment that the aforementioned coach of the swimming team made.

    The next question that should be asked is exactly what did the mean when they used the word 'IQ' in that statement? Presumably they meant that a person's ability to score highly on an official IQ test contributes to 25-30% of his success as using any other method than IQ testing to appraise a person's IQ would be presumptuous, if not arbitrary.

    Obviously, nothing but certain qualities that a person can be said to contribute 25-30% of his success. Thus, the fact alone that a person attained a certain score on the IQ test cannot be regarded as a contributive factor. Only the implication thereof can. What the author of the quote you've cited regards as this implication is crucial. Does he believe that IQ tests reflect pure intelligence? If so, the claim he is making is tantamount to the suggestion that intelligence contributes to 25-30% of academic success.

    If this is the assumption that he has been working under then it does not at all rescue the IQ tests from the charge of inability to accurately gauge intelligence. That is so because the proposition that IQ tests accurately assess a person's intelligence has been assumed rather than arrived at by plausible reasoning grounded on uncontroversial premises.

    Even if, as you say, the author had methodological rigor, he or she has only established that intelligence contributes to 25-30% of academic success. Such a claim is altogether irrelevant to the question of how accurately IQ tests reflect a person's intelligence.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  8. #28
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Although there is a positive correlation between a high IQ and success at work and school, one can plausibly argue that it is still not indicative of the fundamental qualities of a person's character.
    I'm not sure if anyone has ever argued that IQ is indicative of the fundamental qualities of a person's character; I certainly was not.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Critics of the Bell Curve have raised the objection that the IQ test is manipulable and far too simple to be indicative of a person's true intelligence or other requisite merit for high performance as a student and an employee.

    "Charles R. Tittle, Thomas Rotolo found that the more that written, IQ-like examinations are used as screening devices for occupational access, the stronger the relationship between IQ and income. Thus, rather than higher IQ leading to status attainment because it indicates skills needed in a modern society, IQ may reflect the same test-taking abilities used in artificial screening devices by which status groups protect their domains." (The Bell Curve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

    In other words, because of the inadequacy of the IQ tests, it is possible for people to attain high IQ tests by becoming good test takers rather than by displaying intelligence. Similarly to how people can attain degrees from universities by becoming 'good students' rather than displaying an aptitude for learning.
    I do not necessarily disagree with this. Someone made a claim that IQ was not really indicative of anything, and I simply put forth the idea that it is possibly indicative of something. At the very least, it's indicative of a good test taker, perhaps.


    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    I do believe that you are correct to claim that there is a distinct positive correlation between having a high IQ and success in various aspects of life, however the view of the poster you disagreed with has merit. It could be argued that a person's blood type would be as highly correlated with success as IQ is today under certain social conditions. That is, if universities accepted applicants only with one particular blood type. This runs a parallel today to how many only accept students who are able to score highly on the GRE or ACT. Generally, a person's score on the GRE or ACT correlates highly to his IQ and so are the grades. Thus, if a person manages to succeed in one of those activities, he is far more likely to succeed in others than someone who hasn't managed to do so.
    I don't believe I made any such claim, I simply referenced a wikipedia article about possible positive correlations with IQ. Arguing about what would or could be is irrelevant when talking about what is; if you seek to change the environment, that is a different matter. In order to predict anything, one must have an understanding of the environment in which the thing to be predicted exists(In this case I consider the laws of the universe and our social laws as kinds of environments). In the case of the United States, evidence seems to suggest that IQ does in fact correlate with certain other circumstances, thus lending the knowledge of someone's IQ some predictive value, regardless of the reasons why.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    To exemplify this point, consider the fact of the multitude of dull, yet industrious and ambitious students who manage to attain BAs and often MAs. Since they managed to pass many tests that are by far more intellectually demanding than any IQ test, its difficult to imagine that with sufficient dedication and perseverance, they won't be able to attain a high IQ test result. It is a striking fact about our educational system that a person's grades correlate highly to his ACT or GRE scores which also correlate highly to a person's IQ. However, since we do not have the temerity to assert that a person's grades accurately reflect his level of intelligence, we are not in the position to maintain that standardized IQ testing also does.
    Are school tests always more intellectually demanding, in terms of density? Perhaps four years spent taking IQ test after IQ test, each one different and new, would be much more intense. Besides, IQ is somewhat fluid, and practice could increase someone's IQ. So what if Bob spends his life performing exercises to increase his score on some IQ test. Wouldn't he be better off for it? In any event, level of education is also indicative of success, so comparing the two is futile if one wishes to discount the predictive nature of IQ.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    In recapitulation, we ought to consider the question regarding the cause of a person's success on IQ tests, academic standardized tests and grades. Since the correlation between the three is high, we have a compelling reason to believe that the three are connected and stem from the same root. Is the foundation of the person's success his intelligence, or is it an ability to successfully learn by route? In some cases, it is the former, in others the latter and in some a combination of both ensues. Clearly a clever person would have an easier time performing well in all three activities than one of average intelligence, yet this does not mean that the latter shall be incapable of success under any circumstances. The apparent simplicity of the IQ test leads me to suspect that one can indeed procure a high score by route learning.
    Could it be that the root of all three is intelligence, in some form at least? Wouldn't being able to successfully learn by route be a form of intelligence?

    I'm beginning to think you were just using what I said as a springboard.
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  9. #29
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewEra View Post
    I usually have a hard time figuring out if you are serious or kidding.
    Ya, I know the feeling
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #30
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaunward View Post
    I use modifiers often to cover my own ass. I expect posters like you to question me. Consider it a pre-emptive counterattack. It's undeniable that there is some correlation between IQ and reality, I simply haven't bothered looking into it enough to draw a solid conclusion.

    As for blood type, I could argue blood type is neat to know insofar as that my body will reject certain blood types if I ever need a transfusion.
    I wasn't arguing that blood type wasn't neat to know, only that comparing it to IQ is probably not a great comparison.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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