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Thread: Long Test

  1. #51
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Or you could be an INFP. It's not really unbelievable...

    I know that I have a fairly weak Fi, although I do have a somewhat stronger Ti (probably due to computing experience), so I'm somewhat more inclined to trust it.

    I think it's possible that people haven't figured how to test functions correctly, or else have them in the wrong positions. It may still be valid, and I wouldn't be so dismissive.
    Hm, I suppose some more tinkering wouldn't hurt. I personally don't think they have defined the cognitive functions well enough quite yet.

    And after hanging around enough INTPs and INFPs and reading their descriptions, I am quite certain I am not those types even though I have tested as both. The only type I have ever truly identified with are those who claim to be INFJ.

  2. #52
    Senior Member aeon's Avatar
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    My questioning of cognitive function theory is not so much with the idea of the functions themselves, but that they develop in an order derived from MBTI type.

    For example, I am INFP, but my top four functions in order are: Fi Fe Ni Ne

    My sweetie, who is INFJ or INFx, has these functions as her top four: Ni Ne Fi Fe

    And I can find a few threads where there are dozens more people whose function order is not as the theory would say.

    I do not dismiss the idea as a whole, but rather, I have a body of evidence that suggests the theory as it concerns order of functional development as predicted by MBTI is off the mark.


    cheers,
    Ian

  3. #53
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    I personally don't think they have defined the cognitive functions well enough quite yet.
    Agreed. I've always felt this way about the functions. I usually try to type people by guessing what kind of functions they primarily use, but to me the functions are too ambiguous for this method of typing to be spot-on. Another thing that bothers me about the definitions of the functions is, I can't see functions manifest themselves in people's actions and behavior. I've read that you're not /supposed/ to be able to see functions manifest themselves in people's behavior, but I think if someone's brain is functioning in a certain way, their actions will take a certain route as well, so to me it is fishy to say that someone's MBTI type will not manifest itself in that person's actions, or that you won't be able to guess a person's MBTI type based on their actions.

    Ian said something interesting. Ti is often my top function on cognitive processes tests, but because I self-test as an INFP (and there's not even 1% of doubt in my mind), Ti should be my LAST function, out of all eight. I often test as INTP, ENTP, sometimes even ESTJ, based on the weight of my functions. I may heavily use Ti as it's defined, but I'm not INTP or ENTP. So typing people based on functions... ehhh. It's definitely not a reliable method, but it's the only one I'm able to objectively use in my head when I'm trying to type people I haven't given the test.

    At the very least, I find it difficult to really distinguish between the roles of an introverted function and its extraverted counterpart. I can distinguish thinking functions from feeling functions and sensing functions from intuitive functions, but the lines between Ne and Ni really blur for me, as well as the difference between Se and Si, Fe and Fi, etc.

  4. #54
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post
    Agreed. I've always felt this way about the functions. I usually try to type people by guessing what kind of functions they primarily use, but to me the functions are too ambiguous for this method of typing to be spot-on. Another thing that bothers me about the definitions of the functions is, I can't see functions manifest themselves in people's actions and behavior. I've read that you're not /supposed/ to be able to see functions manifest themselves in people's behavior, but I think if someone's brain is functioning in a certain way, their actions will take a certain route as well, so to me it is fishy to say that someone's MBTI type will not manifest itself in that person's actions, or that you won't be able to guess a person's MBTI type based on their actions.
    My understanding is that MBTI is supposed to describe a person's most natural and core personality, but this natural type can be obscured by divergent function development needed to cope with life circumstances. Also, the only functions able to be clearly seen in another person's behavior are their extraverted functions, and only maybe shadow's of the behavioral effects of the introverted functions. So I agree that in trying to guess a person's type there can be clues to pick up in observing their interaction with the world, but there is much going on that an outsider will not have access to and much that may even be obscured from the person themselves if they have adopted coping behaviors that do not reflect their natural personality type.

    My understanding is that the cognitive functions tests capture something different than the MBTI test attempts to do. I understand MBTI as trying to get at someone's core personality. I understand the coginitive functions test to capture how strongly a person is using particular functions at the time of testing. Someone might have strong use of a function that is not part of their natural or core personality function line-up due to circumstances forcing them to develop in atypical ways. Perhaps the stated purpose of the cognitive functions test is to assess natural type since they do attempt to guess type based on the results, but my sense is that what it is actually capturing is current strength of function use rather than most natural function use.

    I find the functions very interesting, but tend to think of what they mean rather than take the descriptions as I've seen them written. For example I've never felt any resonance with written descriptions of Fe, but when I think about what an extraverted feeling judgement means, I have great resonance and see it's effect saturating my life experience. It was understanding Ni similarly that finally convinced me I was INFJ when all other explorations were inconclusive.

    I'd agree that the function descriptions probably need to be sharpened. I also think tested degree of use of particular cognitive functions is not a good determination of core MBTI personality. With these understandings in place though, I personally find great benefit in the exploration of functions to clarify MBTI type understanding.
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

  5. #55
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    My understanding is that MBTI is supposed to describe a person's most natural and core personality, but this natural type can be obscured by divergent function development [...]
    That makes sense to me. Also, more than one function probably goes into the making of any decision, so it would be hard to decide a person's type, especially if they didn't rely heavily on their dom function.

    Also, the only functions able to be clearly seen in another person's behavior are their extraverted functions, and only maybe shadows of the behavioral effects of the introverted functions.
    This sounds fishy to me. I don't understand why some functions can be seen but others cannot. Even if someone heavily uses Ti, which supposedly can't be seen in their behavior, they're going to make decisions using, primarily, Ti. I can observe those decisions, thus isn't Ti visible to me? Sure, maybe they use several other functions as well, and maybe it's hard to pick out Ti from among them, but Ti influences their thinking and their behavior, and should not, therefore, be invisible to me. I don't understand how this can be. The only way I can see it being invisible to me is if it becomes indistinguishable from among the other functions in use.

    Someone might have strong use of a function that is not part of their natural or core personality function line-up due to circumstances forcing them to develop in atypical ways.
    I can honestly say, that if I'm using Ti heavily, it's not because I'm forced to use it. I simply enjoy it and get a lot of usefulness and fulfillment out of it. I don't even know what it is, haha. I just know that I'm happy, and that most tests say I use Ti the most, so I have to assume I'm not being 'coerced' to use Ti. But the definition of Ti is not enough.

    but when I think about what an extraverted feeling judgement means
    What does an extroverted feeling judgment mean to you?

  6. #56
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post
    This sounds fishy to me. I don't understand why some functions can be seen but others cannot. Even if someone heavily uses Ti, which supposedly can't be seen in their behavior, they're going to make decisions using, primarily, Ti. I can observe those decisions, thus isn't Ti visible to me? Sure, maybe they use several other functions as well, and maybe it's hard to pick out Ti from among them, but Ti influences their thinking and their behavior, and should not, therefore, be invisible to me. I don't understand how this can be. The only way I can see it being invisible to me is if it becomes indistinguishable from among the other functions in use.
    By definition extraverted functions are those that are displayed outwardly and introverted functions operate internally and are not on display.

    Yes, I think you may see shadows of the introverted functions, but by definition, they are not functions that a person uses externally and so would not be clearly visible to others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post
    I can honestly say, that if I'm using Ti heavily, it's not because I'm forced to use it. I simply enjoy it and get a lot of usefulness and fulfillment out of it. I don't even know what it is, haha. I just know that I'm happy, and that most tests say I use Ti the most, so I have to assume I'm not being 'coerced' to use Ti. But the definition of Ti is not enough.
    Forced by life circumstances probably wasn't a good choice of words. Certainly I think someone might enjoy the use of a function that has been developed and yet is not one core or most natural to their personality. What I meant to convey was simply that life experience may direct the path of development so that functions not part of natural type were developed. There's not necessarily any good/bad value judgement attached to these function developments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post
    What does an extroverted feeling judgment mean to you?
    Hmmm...well, I start my process by thinking about judgement. Feeling and thinking in terms of MBTI are about how a person goes about making judgements, decisions or discernments as I understand it. Do they rely more on thinking (impartial logic, facts, etc) or feeling (gut reactions, emotional impact, relationship orientation)? I'm a feeling judgement sort. Then the question is does my feeling judgement compass orient internally or externally. Without question mine is oriented externally. By that I mean that when considering a judgement or decision I look external to gather perceptions and observe others and weigh these external factors into my decision process. My exposure to INFP's highlighted how different my experience was from most INFP's who seem to describe judging based on an internal orientation. My external experience as observed and through INFP description seems to indicate external impact may affect an INFP's experience of the decision made, but the decision does not need external interplay in the making. An INFP seems to just turn inward, read the what's written there, and says, "There's my answer". I admit I have an admiration for the strength of INFP decisions against the winds of external influence. My process is much more interactive and dependent on my external feedback loop. If I try to process a decision entirely internally I will get lost in a chaos of thought. I need to turn my experience external and bounce it off of others before I feel I can see it clearly. This need to turn a decision process external to see clearly is what I see extraverted feeling judgement is at it's core. Most Fe descriptions talk about a concern with social order and appropriate behavior and that's really not something I relate to. I recognize how it could be associated with someone who uses some external construct to weigh decisions by, and if those descriptions are written by people who are not natural with Fe it makes sense that this may be their external assessment of Fe manifestation, but I'm personally not that concerned with social order and appropriate behavior other than wanting to feel secure in my understanding of it so that I can make secure judgements for my own behavior. Fe also seems to be associated with gushy and effusive kindness. I don't see that as the core of Fe either, but I can see how a person who orients a feeling judgement externally would manifest in that way and so that kind of behavior would come to be associated with Fe.

    Kind of long and convoluted, but then I'm only a mediocre communicator. I hope it made some sort of sense anyway. It's only my take on Fe and it's possible that it's a terribly individual interpretation and doesn't reflect others experience of Fe at all, so please take it with that cliched grain of salt.
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

  7. #57
    To the top of the world arcticangel02's Avatar
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    arcticangel's scores on the main set of questions:

    Extraversion (E): 48 5 : (I) Introversion
    Sensing (S): 9 70 : (N) iNtuition
    Thinking (T): 0 92 : (F) Feeling
    Judging (J): 2 67 : (P) Perceiving

    You scored as an ENFP.

    Assuming that you are an ENFP,
    Your DOMINANT function is Extraverted Intuition.
    Your AUXILIARY function is Introverted Feeling.
    Your TERTIARY function is Extraverted Thinking.
    Your INFERIOR function is Introverted Sensing.


    Please bear in mind that the supplementary questions are experimental and may be highly unreliable. If these scores conflict with your previous scores, it is probably because the questions are still not reliable enough.

    arcticangel's scores on the supplementary questions:

    Extraverted Thinking / Introverted Feeling : 16
    Extraverted Feeling / Introverted Thinking : 54

    Extraverted Intuition / Introverted Sensing : 34
    Extraverted Sensing / Introverted Intuition : 17

    Rationality (Dominant Judging Function) : 9
    A-rationality (Dominant Perceiving Function) : 37

    According to the supplementary scores, arcticangel could be an ENTP or an ISFJ. These are opposite types, because the supplementary questions measure for preferences that opposite types share in common. See the FAQ for an explanation.

    These results conflict with the evaluation of arcticangel as an ENFP.

    Hah, my results are rather skewed, huh? I think I know these tests too well and start not thinking about the answers.
    ANFP:
    Extraversion (52%) ---- Introversion (48%)
    Sensing (26%) ---- iNtuition (74%)
    Thinking (16%) ---- Feeling (84%)
    Judging (5%) ---- Perceiving (95%)

    9w1 so/sx/sp

  8. #58
    Senior Member DaRick's Avatar
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    Rick's scores on the main set of questions:

    Extraversion (E): 11 50 (I) Introversion
    Sensing (S): 21 46 (N) iNtuition
    Thinking (T): 37 21 (F) Feeling
    Judging (J): 50 21 (P) Perceiving

    You scored as an INTJ.

    Assuming that you are an INTJ,
    Your DOMINANT function is Introverted Intuition.
    Your AUXILIARY function is Extraverted Thinking.
    Your TERTIARY function is Introverted Feeling.
    Your INFERIOR function is Extraverted Sensing.


    Please bear in mind that the supplementary questions are experimental and may be highly unreliable. If these scores conflict with your previous scores, it is probably because the questions are still not reliable enough.

    Rick's scores on the supplementary questions:

    Extraverted Thinking / Introverted Feeling : 27
    Extraverted Feeling / Introverted Thinking : 25

    Extraverted Intuition / Introverted Sensing : 30
    Extraverted Sensing / Introverted Intuition : 15

    Rationality (Dominant Judging Function) : 44
    A-rationality (Dominant Perceiving Function) : 8

    According to the supplementary scores, Rick could be an ESTJ or an INFP. These are opposite types, because the supplementary questions measure for preferences that opposite types share in common. See the FAQ for an explanation.

    These results conflict with the evaluation of Rick as an INTJ.
    I think my S and N scores should probably be closer and so should my T and F scores (<10 points).
    MBTI: INFJ (I: 100% N:58% F: 58% J: 84%)
    Socionics: INFJ
    Enneagram: 4w5 sp/so/sx

  9. #59
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeon View Post
    And I can find a few threads where there are dozens more people whose function order is not as the theory would say.

    I do not dismiss the idea as a whole, but rather, I have a body of evidence that suggests the theory as it concerns order of functional development as predicted by MBTI is off the mark
    Yes, I would agree, and it's definitely the case w/ me too. [But I am also open to the idea of not being infj, because I'm not entirely sure I am.]

    I also somewhat agree w/ tovlo in that the cognitive functions test might speak more towards the functions the person is using actively the day they take the test....*at least with regards to the lesser-used functions. But my heavily used functions are always the same each time I take the test.

    Today when I took it, it was: Fi>Ni>Ne>Se>Fe>Ti>Si>Te

    However, due to many of the middle functions being used rather equally by me depending on the day, the 'reality' for me is probably more like:

    Fi > Ni > Ne > Se=Fe=Ti=Si > Te --- because Se/Fe/Ti/Si tend to switch places whenever I take the test.

  10. #60
    Scream down the boulevard LadyJaye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I wouldn't mind at all. You see the Rationality/A-Rationality scores, right? Well, those decide if you have a dominant Judging function (INTP, INFP, ISFP, ISTP, ESTJ, ESFJ, ENTJ, ENFJ) or dominant Perceiving function (INTJ, INFJ, ISTJ, ISFJ, ESTP, ESFP, ENTP, ENFP.)

    Now, look at these dichotomy scores. These functions theoretically always show up together in a particular personality.

    Ti/Fe: INFJ, ISTP, ENFJ, ESTP, INTP, ENTP, ISFJ, ESFJ
    Fi/Te: INTJ, ISFP, ENTJ, ESFP, INFP, ENFP, ISTJ, ESTJ
    Si/Ne: ISFJ, INTP, ESFJ, ENTP, INFP, ENFP, ISTJ, ESTJ
    Ni/Se: INFJ, INTJ, ISTP, ISFP, ENFJ, ENTJ, ESTP, ESFP

    These are all applied as filters, by testing Rationality/A-rationality as well as the four opposite function pairs, and choosing the best model to accommodate all the highest scores.

    So theoretically, if we determine that they have a dominant Judging function, we've eliminated all Perception dominants as a possibility. Find out that they use Si and Ne more than Se and Ni, you've eliminated all the types that have Se and Ni conscious. At this point, we would know that the person was either an INxP or an ESxJ. If you determined that they used more Te/Fi, then you would have to find out whether they were an INFP (Fi, Ne, Si, Te) or ESTJ (Te, Si, Ne, Fi). If you determined that they used more Fe/Ti, you would have to determine whether they were INTP (Ti, Ne, Si, Fe) or ESFJ (Fe, Si, Ne, Ti).

    Sadly, this theoretically based test doesn't produce as good results in practice as it should, and is constantly being refined... with no real success as of yet.
    Thank you so much. Very thorough and much appreciated.

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