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Temperament by Inclusion, Control and Affection

Eric B

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Eric, I just wanted to explain my selections further now that I have a bit of time.

I decide upon Supine Phlegmatic for inclusion because of the ambiverted nature of the temperament. I've always been shy, reserved, commitment and service oriented, and relatively private. At the same time, I've also been quite a bit socially aggressive(social ladder climbing). As a young-er person, people viewed me as very outgoing, friendly, upbeat, popular, and enthusiastic. I have a handful of lifelong friends. I went through a traumatic period in my life and I changed in the process. I can't say that I'm remotely socially aggressive anymore. I turn down quite a number of opportunities to befriend people. The again, my priorities have changed, and I've apparently gotten older too. I never minded being alone though, or felt "lonely" in being by myself, so long as it was my decision and not a form of punishment. Journaling, reading, and daydreaming kept me occupied enough.
To be technical, "ambivert" would be Phlegmatic Supine, because it expresses moderately like a Phlegmatic. You could say Supine Phlegmatic responds as an ambivert, though.
Now, you're saying you were shy and reserved, yet socially aggressive and people saw you as outgoing. Sounds like you respond more than you express.
And thren circumstances changed it. You're probably somewhere close to the center of the map, in the Supine range.

For the affection, I am very Sanguine with my husband, but only with my husband. The Melancholy part fits in where I said, "I am not physically affectionate with almost everyone else (except relatives, but that's different). I don't mind physical affection from close friends but generally do not need much of it and rarely give it."

I wouldn't say I am the don't-touch-me type, but I am not touchy feely at all either (except with my husband). Does that still sound like Sanguine?
Then you might be what the FIRO manual (Leo Ryan) calls the "Affectionate Homebody", which translates into Melancholy in Inclusion-Sanguine in Affection.
Inclusion tells you who is in or out of the relationship. For a Melancholy or Choleric, most are out, unless they meet a criteria (Ryan calls it the "Exclusive Club" mentality). For those who get int to the Club, Affection then determines how affectionate or open/closed they are.
 

Totenkindly

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You had said you had printed out my page, way back.

heh. I'm too old to remember stuff like that. :smile:

Yes, and it was actually over my wife and I! The guy was complaining because we weren't ordering beers.

... and after all those $10 shots of tequila too!
Some noive.

To me, I would not start a fight over that either. There are a lot worse things people have done so something like that was the least. I just figured it was some cranky old guy, so what can you expect from him? This would be the introversion, and I was in his place, so I did not feel he really crossed any boundary of mine.

True, you were in "his" place, and you're introverted... but depending on how it was approached, there's also politeness that should be involved. Still, I wasn't there.

My point was mostly that, while a direct/control strategy is not my first choice, if I feel it's important enough or I'm pushed enough, I'll gear into it and then it can get sort of ugly. Because at that point I'm usually sure of what I'm doing and don't have a reason to gear out of it.
 

Kristiana

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Then you might be what the FIRO manual (Leo Ryan) calls the "Affectionate Homebody", which translates into Melancholy in Inclusion-Sanguine in Affection.
Inclusion tells you who is in or out of the relationship. For a Melancholy or Choleric, most are out, unless they meet a criteria (Ryan calls it the "Exclusive Club" mentality). For those who get int to the Club, Affection then determines how affectionate or open/closed they are.

Ah okay, that makes sense. Melancholy in Inclusion-Sanguine in Affection is a possible fit for me... except, I am NOT AT ALL "Strong attention to detail, meticulous" as it describes for the Melancholy in Inclusion. I am NOT AT ALL "Slow-paced, works at a steady, slow pace and loses momentum as the day progresses" either... I am very fast paced, I work very quickly, I multi-task nearly all the time, I am not steady and work in bursts of energy, and I have an extremely high processing speed. I am not extremely private either, nor would I say I am a homebody.

The weaknesses fit quite well.

Does that still fit Melancholy in Inclusion?


For Sanguine in Affection, "Has tendency to adopt behaviors and moralities of others in order to be accepted -- which may be good or bad, depending" does NOT fit AT ALL. Neither of the weaknesses fit me, either. The rest, however, fits very well.

Thanks :)
 

Eric B

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Well, you said Phlegmatic Melancholy in Inclusion. I was just rounding it off to the pure temperament, but it would be a similar dynamic (PM in Inclusion/Sanguine in Affection), yet the PM will be a bit different from the pure Melancholy in some respects.
And the temperaments moderate each other, so for someone who's a blend like you, the Sanguine in Affection will come out differently than for a pure Sanguine in all three areas.
 
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Kristiana

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Well, you said Phlegmatic Melancholy in Inclusion. I was just rounding it off to the pure temperament, but it would be a similar dynamic (PM in Inclusion/Sanguine in Control), yet the PM will be a bit different from the pure Malcholy in some respects.
And the temperaments moderate each other, so for someone who's a blend like you, the Sanguine in Aafection will come out differently than for a pure Sangione in all tjhree areas.

That makes sense, thanks :)
 

Charmed Justice

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To be technical, "ambivert" would be Phlegmatic Supine, because it expresses moderately like a Phlegmatic. You could say Supine Phlegmatic responds as an ambivert, though.
Now, you're saying you were shy and reserved, yet socially aggressive and people saw you as outgoing. Sounds like you respond more than you express.
And thren circumstances changed it. You're probably somewhere close to the center of the map, in the Supine range.
Yes, I'd say I respond more than I initiate; unless, I happen to know exactly what my role is to be in the interaction. In that case, I will actively initiate. I just need to know what's what in advance, which usually isn't the case in social situations. So I'll sit back and figure it all out first, if that makes any sense. That would be Supine?
 

Eric B

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Yes, Supine, but probably higher in the expressed range (more toward the right of the quadrant in the map).
True, you were in "his" place, and you're introverted... but depending on how it was approached, there's also politeness that should be involved. Still, I wasn't there.
I've been forced to deal with a lot more than impolitness from people, so again, his impoliteness to me just looks bad on him, not me.

My point was mostly that, while a direct/control strategy is not my first choice, if I feel it's important enough or I'm pushed enough, I'll gear into it and then it can get sort of ugly. Because at that point I'm usually sure of what I'm doing and don't have a reason to gear out of it.
As I said in the PM, you sound so much like me, and could still be Choleric in Control; just tempered away by the Supine in other areas. The same with Kristiana, for that matter. The Melancholy in Inclusion and Sanguine in Affection will temper the Control as well. And then, you mentioned Inclusion: Phlegmatic-Melancholy, Melancholy, Choleric-Phlegmatic, so there is apparently some Choleric in there somewhere, and you're just associating it possibly with Inclusion.
 

Totenkindly

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As I said in the PM, you sound so much like me, and could still be Choleric in Control; just tempered away by the Supine in other areas. The same with Kristiana, for that matter. The Melancholy in Inclusion and Sanguine in Affection will temper the Control as well. And then, you mentioned Inclusion: Phlegmatic-Melancholy, Melancholy, Choleric-Phlegmatic, so there is apparently some Choleric in there somewhere, and you're just associating it possibly with Inclusion.

Well, here's the thing. I think I acted a lot more NFP/SFJ over much of my life in terms of my fears and expectations in social interaction... but increasingly moving away from it now.

I have noticed a big swing in the last few years, where I really threw off a lot of my old behaviors and embraced "myself." I allow myself to throw my weight around, I let people react how they want, and I move forward and control my own life and make decisions about it. It's not an unnatural process either, it's something I embrace. My natural mode was far more challenging than I permitted myself in the past because I felt like I had to always be nice, kind, good, and accepting, and not exert control.
 

Charmed Justice

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Yes, Supine, but probably higher in the expressed range (more toward the right of the quadrant in the map).
Thanks Eric. I was reading through the thread, and you mentioned to that Supine has a tendency to lack social skills. Could you elaborate on that a bit? I can't really relate to any lack of social skills, and would actually say that I'm most skilled socially. Thinking...
 

Eric B

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Well, here's the thing. I think I acted a lot more NFP/SFJ over much of my life in terms of my fears and expectations in social interaction... but increasingly moving away from it now.

I have noticed a big swing in the last few years, where I really threw off a lot of my old behaviors and embraced "myself." I allow myself to throw my weight around, I let people react how they want, and I move forward and control my own life and make decisions about it. It's not an unnatural process either, it's something I embrace. My natural mode was far more challenging than I permitted myself in the past because I felt like I had to always be nice, kind, good, and accepting, and not exert control.
So that too sounds like you could really be on the Choleric side in Control, but the circumstances led you to not be able to express your true temperament need. Even though my parents were ISTJ, they were still on the liberal side in many ways, basically rebelling against the old morality of "children should be seen and not heard", and such. (Even though they're supposed to be "Guardians"; the old order they grew up in was totally screwed up, so they tried to start from scratch). So I was allowed to express my Control to some extent.
APS teaches a distinction between inborn temperament and learned behavior. In this, it even differs from the FIRO-B the questionnaire is taken from, which is supposedly changeable behavior. So the method I'm using now, of picking out the reports, can also reflect learned behavior.
Thanks Eric. I was reading through the thread, and you mentioned to that Supine has a tendency to lack social skills. Could you elaborate on that a bit? I can't really relate to any lack of social skills, and would actually say that I'm most skilled socially. Thinking...

I don't think I said Supines "lack social skills". I had said that I lacked social graces, because I was expressing to people with a Control temperament rather than Inclusion, which is the social area. Supine lacks the mechanism to express his need to people, even though he wants. This is based on a fear of rejection. Extroverted temperaments (Sanguine, Choleric), have the mechanism (confidence) to express.
 

Charmed Justice

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I don't think I said Supines "lack social skills". I had said that I lacked social graces, because I was expressing to people with a Control temperament rather than Inclusion, which is the social area. Supine lacks the mechanism to express his need to people, even though he wants. This is based on a fear of rejection. Extroverted temperaments (Sanguine, Choleric), have the mechanism (confidence) to express.

I apologize, I was referring to this post:

I also forgot to mention, that ENJ is In Charge, and this is the Interaction Style, and involves social skills. That would seem the opposite of Supine.

Poor paraphrasing on my part.
 

Eric B

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Oh, OK.
What I meant there was that the Interaction Style (or "Inclusion") involved social skills, not the temperament. And Choleric is the opposite of Supine in both expressive and responsive dimensions. The high expressiveness of the Choleric will give it more social graces, but not necessarily better social skills.
 

Loxias

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I think I would be getting :
Inclusion : Melancholic (although Supine speaks to me on some aspects too)
Control : Phlegmatic-Melancholic although I can relate with Phlegmatic-Sanguine too.
Affection : Melancholic
 

Venom

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since the other thread i've taken more time to think on this... Im basically:

Choleric Phlegmatic in inclusion
(could be Phlegmatic Choleric) Phlegmatic in control
Supine Phlegmatic in affection

What do you have to say about that! :rofl1:

Im phlegmatic all over! It really is true that people are amazed my ability to basically spend a lot of time sleeping, eating, and just blahh, and yet I will go totally control freak and expend extreme amounts of perfectionist energy on little projects (im guessing thats the Choleric part). To complicate things more, even though i have some choleric in my inclusion, I have some supine in affection (totally giving people the wrong impression if they see one side of me)! How is this combination possible! :laugh: I guess it would explain how the ENJ "In charge" personality combines with the NF temperament.
 

yvonne

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i think mine would be melancholy phlegmatic in all areas...
 

Venom

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Thanks for noticing my results lack logic :)
It could simply be user error, so I'll explain why I picked what I did.

Inclusion: Supine I definitely have the want of an extrovert, and I AM an extrovert energy-wise. But I do come across as shy (or stuck-up, I'm told) simply because I tend to be self-conscious and I try to get the feel of the situation and the hierarchy and things like that before I jump on in. I have a pretty high aversion to rejection, so I approach others FAR less than I would actually like, and I do feel very hurt when I'm excluded. I had a pretty traumatic childhood and was forced into isolation a lot, so I've just always attributed it to that.

whats funny is that I could say the above about myself with 1000% truth, yet I still see myself as choleric phlegmatic...funny how self inventory works :D

Control: Sanguine-Phlegmatic Now that I re-read , I'm not sure that's the most accurate choice. I think I'm more of a Supine-Phlegmatic or Sanguine. I think I appear to be dependent because I abhor failure and I like the have the reassurance of people that are important to me, but in the end, I do what I want and what I think is right, and if anyone actually attempts to control me, I'll eat them alive :yes:. I really don't want control over other people. I want everyone to do their part to reach our common goals. I WILL attempt to exert control isf what you're doing negatively affects me, but I don't like it at all. But I do go through periods when I feel like I'm completely reliant on others, just because I've run out of my own energy or neglected myself to the point of not knowing what I want to do, anyway.

I dont relate at all

Affection: Phlegmatic-Choleric Like I said, I really had a hard time with this one. I'm not touchy feely at all outside of my husband and kids, and even then, I give a lot more than I actually require and feel very invaded when someone is laying it on too thick. Emotionally, I think I require a lot of non-physical affection to feel accepted by someone really close to me, but outside of that, I don't, but I tend to give a lot of it, which is why Is why I was also leaning toward Choleric-Phlegmatic.

As far as my type goes, I'm always unsure! I posted the more forgiving J/P percentage I've gotten...it's usually more along the lines of a 3% difference. My cognitive functions always show outrageous use of Fe, pretty closely followed by Ni/Ne and Te. Si and Ti tend to fall below that and Fi and Se are pretty low.
I've considered that I could be a very messed up ENFP or a very messed up ENFJ or something entirely different, but in the end, I function as more of an ENFJ when I'm healthy, and as more of an ISTP when unhealthy, with random habits that I picked up from my largely unhealthy ENFP mother.

So, in closing, no, I'm not sure of my type :).

Were u ever a schemer as a child? Did you ever have schemes that you would try to convince others to hop on, only to have them burn out or simply not come to fruition? I dont mean, "did you have dreams?" I really mean, "did you have little schemes you would try to generate support for?"
 

Eric B

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I think I would be getting :
Inclusion : Melancholic (although Supine speaks to me on some aspects too)
Control : Phlegmatic-Melancholic although I can relate with Phlegmatic-Sanguine too.
You have INxx, so this could be INFJ, if Melancholy in Inclusion (INJ); and Phlegmatic Sanguine and Phlegmatic Melancholy are on opposite sides, but still centered around Phlegmatic (for the NF). Could also be INFP if Supine in Inclusion.

since the other thread i've taken more time to think on this... Im basically:

Choleric Phlegmatic in inclusion
(could be Phlegmatic Choleric) Phlegmatic in control
Supine Phlegmatic in affection

What do you have to say about that! :rofl1:
Im phlegmatic all over! It really is true that people are amazed my ability to basically spend a lot of time sleeping, eating, and just blahh, and yet I will go totally control freak and expend extreme amounts of perfectionist energy on little projects (im guessing thats the Choleric part). To complicate things more, even though i have some choleric in my inclusion, I have some supine in affection (totally giving people the wrong impression if they see one side of me)! How is this combination possible! :laugh: I guess it would explain how the ENJ "In charge" personality combines with the NF temperament.
Great match! Choleric=ENJ (the Phlegmatic mix means that you are a little more responsive than other In Charge's, and perhaps bordering on Get Things going-ENP); Phlegmatic=NF.

whats funny is that I could say the above about myself with 1000% truth, yet I still see myself as choleric phlegmatic...funny how self inventory works :D
If it's similar, then that's because the Choleric expresses like an extrovert, while the Supine wants like an extrovert, while the Supine expresses like an introvert, and the choleric wants like an introvert. So the Choleric might be able to say he "wants" people, but that is basically about him expressing to them for a task-oriented goal. The Supine will use tasks to respond to people.
(though, as a Choleric, does that mean you could say you were "shy" as well, since that's part of what she said?)
i think mine would be melancholy phlegmatic in all areas...
That would be close enough to INFP. (Since MP borders Supine). Would you happen to be an E4 as well?
 

yvonne

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oh, so you mean enneagram, right? i'm 5w4

(but i've tested both INTP and INFP)
 

Eric B

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OK, that makes sense. When I first read about Enneagram, I identified the 9 types with the five temperaments and four "Phlegmatic blend" pairs, and the 4 sounded like the MelancholyPhlegmatic/SupinePhlegmatic range (introverted, and between people-focused and task-focused). As 5 sounds like a Melancholy; a full MP would make perfect sense as a 5w4.
 
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