Temperament by Inclusion, Control and Affection

[INFtha14]

CONTROL: Who maintains the POWER and makes the DECISIONS for the relationship
Actually here, I now see much strong MP methodology.
Melancholy ("I don't control you, so please don't try to control me"), that is a BIG part of me **
+ Phlegmatic (Democratic; "Let's all be Boss!")... I expect others to chip in their two cents and help make the decisions.

Same for my intimate relationships too.
- I want my SO to not control me, because I don't try to control them.
- I want us to make decisions together about our relationship.

AFFECTION: How emotionally CLOSE or FAR the relationship
Sigh. Yup, Supine ("emotionally CLOSE, but you must reach out to me"),
+ Phlegmatic ("moderate; take it or leave it")

So maybe my code is really SP-MP-SP

:O Are you my twin? *refering to the statements made for Control in M-P/and Affection in S-P.*

Sounds alot like how i go about things. I could see that as a definite possibility with how much I relate to what you say Jenn.

In my intimate relations I definitely see a whole "don't control me, I don't control you kind of vibe". This actually has caused quite abit of conflict with my mother and I.

Cause when she'd be expressing care to me sometimes it would seem like she was trying to control my life *technically she was but her intentions were not to purely control. She was and is afraid of losing her daughters as they seperate from her aka Grow up.*

I actually get really upset when someone tries to control my decisions.
Either on board or get off the "train". Don't have to like my decision with my life but can at least respect them as mine and my own. * "take it or leave it" as a responding phlegmatic in Control.*

And a big yes to the Supine-Phlegmatic in not expecting others to read my mind.

I actually get frustrated when others expect me to read there's when it only ends in confusion and frustration.

I definitely as Supine-phlegmatic in Affection need a strong assertive cue to know what to do and if it's wanted. I can definitely seem indifferent which is too far from the truth in what's happening internally. Sounds like a very definite possibility Jenn. I'm no expert haha just I could have wrote what you did for Control/Affection.

That's so cool that You and Eric B are Supines :O. Wow...Interesting.

 

[Totenkindly]

In my intimate relations I definitely see a whole "don't control me, I don't control you kind of vibe". This actually has caused quite abit of conflict with my mother and I.

Cause when she'd be expressing care to me sometimes it would seem like she was trying to control my life *technically she was but her intentions were not to purely control. She was and is afraid of losing her daughters as they seperate from her aka Grow up.*

That is exactly my experience with some sort of people. At this point in my life, I realize some people in my family and elsewhere have taken my independence as rejection, even if I never rejected them... but just expected me to take care of me and them to take care of me. They were thinking I should have taken care of them or gone out of my way to do something for them, if I cared.

Whereas for me it was a sign of respect that I thought they would look after themselves and it was just natural for someone to want to do so.

I actually get really upset when someone tries to control my decisions.
Either on board or get off the "train". Don't have to like my decision with my life but can at least respect them as mine and my own. * "take it or leave it" as a responding phlegmatic in Control.*

I usually just withdraw, if I can... so they can't control me. And to prevent me from controlling them.

I definitely as Supine-phlegmatic in Affection need a strong assertive cue to know what to do and if it's wanted.

Yeah. I guess someone else might just ask, or do something anyway when they are not sure, but especially with my ex -- the rules have changed and I no longer get "cues" to follow, so who knows what our relationship is supposed to be? And I don't like to intrude so... I keep trying to judge the cues but damnably never take initiative just to express MY feelings as they might be... and end up getting surprised by something when rituals unexpectedly still get followed. Once I get a cue, I'm good; but it's even hard for me to realize I'm waiting for a cue, it catches me unawares.

That's so cool that You and Eric B are Supines :O.

I guess it is.

I'm still wrestling with what it means.

I really don't like being someone who has such a strong desire for approval/acceptance. I don't even know why I care so badly or why it hurts when I don't get it, so I've had to learn to live without. I wish I didn't care... because I still have that instinctive autonomy sense and I can take care of myself just fine.

I've worked very hard to become someone who can take it in stride and not let it derail me. But the desire frustrates me.

 

[INFtha14]

That is exactly my experience with some sort of people. At this point in my life, I realize some people in my family and elsewhere have taken my independence as rejection, even if I never rejected them... but just expected me to take care of me and them to take care of me. They were thinking I should have taken care of them or gone out of my way to do something for them, if I cared.

Whereas for me it was a sign of respect that I thought they would look after themselves and it was just natural for someone to want to do so.

Right on Jennifer. This is definitely my mind set, why would someone make someone go out of there way for them when they clearly are not being hindered in anyway to do so themselves?

I usually just withdraw, if I can... so they can't control me. And to prevent me from controlling them.

^
Yeah. I guess someone else might just ask, or do something anyway when they are not sure, but especially with my ex -- the rules have changed and I no longer get "cues" to follow, so who knows what our relationship is supposed to be? And I don't like to intrude so... I keep trying to judge the cues but damnably never take initiative just to express MY feelings as they might be... and end up getting surprised by something when rituals unexpectedly still get followed. Once I get a cue, I'm good; but it's even hard for me to realize I'm waiting for a cue, it catches me unawares.

That's definitely something I relate with. Absolute difficulty with initiative in regards to emotions/where I stand. It feels very uncomfortable when there is no cue as to know how to react and where to go in terms of a relationship in general. It's almost like I don't know how to initiate? Does that relate?

I guess it is.

I'm still wrestling with what it means.

I really don't like being someone who has such a strong desire for approval/acceptance. I don't even know why I care so badly or why it hurts when I don't get it, so I've had to learn to live without. I wish I didn't care... because I still have that instinctive autonomy sense and I can take care of myself just fine.

I've worked very hard to become someone who can take it in stride and not let it derail me. But the desire frustrates me.

Wow... you just described the main issue with my mother/sister 1 and me.
I think my mother is offended by how independent/Self-directed I am which of course I never intend to offend. She tries to manipulate me with what I want *freedom* and doesn't realize that her backing off doesn't give the desired affect only confusion when she acts a tad bit hostile in her tone.

You know what's scary people like that seem like they want you to be co-dependent on them and they are to you. That's at least how I perceived my mother.

I also definitely have the mantra which you mentioned something above that fitted well "if you can do something yourself you should do it yourself then cause if your expecting someone to take care of you when you are fully capable... well in my eyes that's absolutely selfish. I've been called cold/selfish/ " You don't care" all because this is how I see certain situations.

I think my mother is if I'm remembering correctly Supine in Control/Affection Definitely for inclusion. She's SFJ so that Fe in her code probably just adds to the flavor of Supine.

Yeah it took quite awhile to grasp what it all was suppose to mean and how it connected with Expressive and Responsive. Which is really fascinating .

.

 

[Thalassa]

Inclusion Phlegmatic-Sanguine

Control either Phlegmatic-Sanguine or Melancholy-Phlegmatic

Affection one of the Sanguines definitely...I don't know, because I don't agree with every single point of one or the other, but it's one of the Sanguines

 

[Charmed Justice]

Inclusion: Supine Phlegmatic
Control: Phleg Mel or just Phleg. Phleg Choleric makes a lot of sense, but I am tolerant of a moderate amount of control...until I'm not.
Affection: Phleg Mel

...as best as I can tell. ^Pretty difficult to do.

 

[BlueFlame]

Inclusion: Supine -
Control: Sanguine Phlegmatic
Affection: Phlegmatic Choleric - I had trouble with this one. It was a bit too extreme, but the closest I could find!

Apparently, I have low energy reserves.
I'm pretty sure all my types should have the title: Hot Mess, and we can just leave it at that.

 

[Eric B]

I did skim through some of the stuff on your site. (Sorry, I was amazed at the quantity of material you have and hope to read through it -- it's just very "thick" and is going to take me awhile... wow!) So I did see snippets of your discussion on this, the INP/ISF connection, etc., when you did the cross-comparisons between systems.

Are you still using the volume you printed out years ago? For the first page, it will still be pretty much the same, but page two (originally the longest one, dealing with MBTI) has since been broken down into several smaller parts, if you ever still plan to read that. (2, introducing MBTI from scratch; 2a how I evolved the correlation, another page that is a shorter essay on the correlation, 3, the other systems, and 4, the "dynamic type" idea with 81 types and jackandthebeast's "76 Types" function tables).

I guess the big thing with me is that the only amount of control I have ever really expressed is through the Phlegmatic, I have no real Choleric flavor in me at all. I demand control over myself, but I really do not like having control over other people directly; I don't like being a supervisor in a job setting; I don't like being in charge of groups EXCEPT that it allows me to make sure that the strategy/direction is correct... thus a necessary evil. I really like other people to rise to the occasion on their own and be self-directive.

I'm basically like that too, because the Supine and Choleric are diametric opposites, and it's like a tug of war at times. Even though Control covers leadership and responsibilities, the speed at which we tend to undertake responsibilities is nevertheless tied to our Inclusion temperament. (I know, that can throw you off, but it does make sense, for you usually have to approach people on a surface interaction level before you can control them).
Hence, I don't really want to control or be responsible for others either, precisely because of my social reservation.

So for me, it comes out simply in wanting things my way, and then, if I feel more secure on the social level, I'll tend to readily cross boundaries in trying to make things my way or what I think makes sense. And, then, of course, I won't want anyone to control me either. Cognitively, it is explainable through the Ti+Ne.
You also have the typical NTP argumentativeness or oneupmanship, which I also associate with the Choleric. It will obviously be more apparent for ENTP's, because of the extroversion.

Also, since the Supine has the high want of social and deep personal interaction, yet not the expressive mechanism to gain it, I end up using the expressed Control (to compensate for the expressed Inclusion). Hence, I can track down and maintain contact with old friends/acquaintances that most would have long let go of; if I miss a person or group, find out the general area they will be in, and I usually find them, even in a large, crowded area. eC doesn't provide the social graces to be popular enough to have them come to me like eI does, but eC can sure find them.
Also, while I'm slow to start projects, once I do, I usually persevere until completion, and am pretty thorough.
(Hence, "Mission Impossible" as the FIRO name on the chart).

That also would be tied to the immature Si+Fe. An NTJ's "Choleric" behavior will be from the Te+Ni, and yet since their wanted Inclusion will be low (Melancholy or Choleric), they will not desire to maintain connections like that. Matching this, their immature functions will be Se+Fi.

The ideal for me would be a community with a shared vision where everyone takes responsible to contribute the most that they can for the good of the group... and thus i'm responsible for me and everyone else can be autonomous as well.

It's like "Informative" taken to the max setting.

That's probably an ideal most anyone can hold (except perhaps a Choleric compulsive in Control, or an unhealthy person), but Control preference (especially for those whose Inclusion/Affection tends to interpersonal harmony) will be about how we react when this ideal inevitably does not work out.

Yes, I'm 5w4. EXTREME wing. I always score higher in Five, and the description fits me better than 4w5... but I'm the bare number of points up the scale on Five. The next highest is Nine, and it's not nearly as close as the 4 and 5 are to each other.

I noticed on your chart that you had MP/SP on the Four node... and INP.

I've kind of stepped back from the APS-Enneagram correlation for now, since enneagram is structured so differently. Like INTP's being so 5 rather than necessarily IST, INJ or SJ being that type. I would think so=Inclusion, sp=Control and sx=affection; and INTP's would be 9so8sp5sx or maybe 6so1sp5sx (and me, 6so8sp6sx), and this average out to a 5w6 or 5w4, but it is of course not structured that way.
The types do still seem to fit when mapped to expressive/responsive like that, though; hence you having such a strong 4 wing.

... the other thing I'll clarify from my prior post is that I sounded rather casual in my Supine-ish desire to connect? It's not really casual at all. It's one of those "deep pangs" where I feel a void and sense of deep loss if I don't connect with someone... see "sx" variant on the enneagram. I am driving to connect with the "real person" under all the surface stuff. But I also have this extreme sense of autonomy so if someone draws a hard boundary, I will never cross it nor bug them, almost to a fault, aside from an occasion line I will put in the water just so they know I'm open... but inside it hurts like hell, like I chopped off a finger. On the surface, I keep everything casual; inside, everything is very extreme and the two forces have to be intense in order to balance each other.

I feel very much like I've always had two extreme forces warring with each other inside, keeping each other in balance.

Yeah, that's the typical Supine frustration as emphasized in the APS manuals. It is believed that the temperament was missed for all those milennia, because on the surface they look so much like a regular Melancholy (or perhaps, Phlegmatic), and yet, nobody evwer knows they have this deep need that those two temperaments don't. The need equals that of the Sanguine, but the Sanguine, of course, expresses to others, and naturally gains the interaction they want.

That's so cool that You and Eric B are Supines :O. Wow...Interesting.

Yeah, now I really wish she had come to our meetup. There don't seem to be many Supines in my circle. Be nice to see others for a change.
You also would have seen Jenocyde's Choleric side (in a particular incident), to give an illustration of what I was saying above.

Also, I should clarify, the Affection temperament is not determined by who controls who in deep personal relations. That would be Control. Once in the deep relationship, then the Control behavior will also affect the interaction in that area. My being supine in Affection doesn't mean I want to be controlled in my deep personal relation, like my marriage. It just means I'm not expressive of a lot of affection or deep connection, however, I do generally respond to it. I tend to be more controlling of the relationship because of the Control. (Even when it means me leaving her to make decisions because I don't feel like being bothered with it at that point).
So since both of you discussing that are moderate in both Control and Affection, it will be similar anyway; just to make clear that you don't look to the Affection temperament for who controls the relationship.

 

[Eric B]

As for the others that have just been posting, the pattern is solidly NF's scoring on the "Phlegmatic cross" (the moderate gray areas on the map) in the Control area, with a concentration towards the upper left, which is the direction I had expected NF to lie in. For instance, marmalade having Phlegmatic Sanguine OR Melancholy Phlegmatic.

What I think might be happening, is that the Supine descriptions are emphasizing "dependency" to an extent that is a bit too extreme for people, especially familiar with MBTI/KTT type, which really does not associate dependency with any type at all. This made me have to think twice when putting together the correlation. So it is something not familiar as a type/temperament trait, and most have not thought about it. So then, you end up on these neighboring moderate ranges.
Of course, the most accurate way to sort it out is the actual test (APS, FIRO-B, or another one called WorleyID).
That would give a definite score, and you could perhaps be e/wC=3/6, or somewhere in that area, where you're still in the Supine range (including the "Loyal Lieutenant" section), yet are more moderate in dependency needs, yet not as moderate to fit the pure Phlegmatic description ("Matcher") which lies in dead center.
(I sound like I'm selling something, but I'm not. I know it is a hassle for something to cost so much. Wish it was free, like a trial or something at least).

Then, we have Blue Flame, who has Supine in Inclusion, Sanguine Phlegmatic in Control, which would seem way off. Do you have questions about what your type is? (Your closing statement seems to indicate that). I notice you came close on Judging (58%), so if you were ENFP, then, it would be a bit closer. S-SP- I would expect for an ISFP. Could that be possible?

Then, both you and ENFPfer as extroverts, and Supines or Supine Phlegmatic in Inclusion. This is possible, as the Supine is said to have extroverted energies, because of the fact that they "want" (respond) as an extrovert. so that is not impossible (though Supine Phlegmatic will have only a moderate want, and is more likely a solid introvert).

And I see ENFPfer has dropped both the E and P in the profile type. So are you now reconsidering your type also?
SP-P- would seem to be an INFP. Phlegmatic Melancholy and Phlegmatic Choleric in Control both lie between Melancholy and Choleric. But since you mention both, as well as "just Phleg", then you seem to lean towards a general Phlegmatic in Control, which would make sense for NF, which seems to be your most self-assured preference.

 

[Charmed Justice]

Yes, I'm reconsidering my type too. I heard most everybody's doing it.

The Supine Phleg for Inclusion seemed like the best fit; although, there's enough about that selection that really doesn't fit, and I wonder if I'm perhaps focusing on the wrong things/circumstances.

Phlegmatic in Control works for me.

 

[Totenkindly]

...You know what's scary people like that seem like they want you to be co-dependent on them and they are to you.

Well.. isn't that what codependent is?

People don't think "I want to be codependent." Instead, they see the world in a way that leads them to indulge in codependent behavior because they think it's the way it's supposed to be, and when they don't do the codependent thing, they feel overwhelming anxiety.

(Note: Substitute various psychological conditions in lieu of codependence, to same effect.)

Your mom thinks it's wrong for you to be so aloof, or not to take care of her, or not allow her to take care of you. Because it unsettles her and she feels adrift, most likely.

I also definitely have the mantra which you mentioned something above that fitted well "if you can do something yourself you should do it yourself then cause if your expecting someone to take care of you when you are fully capable... well in my eyes that's absolutely selfish. I've been called cold/selfish/ " You don't care" all because this is how I see certain situations.

My problem was that the family kept it veiled, then finally dumped it on me all at once. I was rather blindsided, but it was an eye-opener for how they were perceiving me and justified a lot of my intuitions about how they were interacting with me.

But I always was very independent. My parents didn't even know I could read until the kindergarten teacher sent home a note asking them if they knew. I sat around in my room playing records and reading the books that came along with them, until I apparently developed an extensive vocabulary. I find it interesting that, even at that age, I hid things from others.... at least, I think I actively hid my capabilities, because later in life I remember feeling anxious around my parents when they found out any of my capabilities.

Was this again part of autonomy developing, or was it fear of codependence and/or judgment?

I think my mother is if I'm remembering correctly Supine in Control/Affection Definitely for inclusion. She's SFJ so that Fe in her code probably just adds to the flavor of Supine.

Yes, I grew up in a very SFJ environment (both family and religion).
Still not sure how much was innate and what I learned to feel shame for.

I would like to say that any Supine/approval-desiring behavior was a development, not innate, on my part... but the fact I was susceptible to it at all (since I know others who, even in that environ, have no trouble shrugging it off) makes me wary of thinking that even if it is palatable.

 

[Totenkindly]

Are you still using the volume you printed out years ago? ...

Sorry, not even sure what you are talking about!

I'm basically like that too, because the Supine and Choleric are diametric opposites, and it's like a tug of war at times. Even though Control covers leadership and responsibilities, the speed at which we tend to undertake responsibilities is nevertheless tied to our Inclusion temperament. (I know, that can throw you off, but it does make sense, for you usually have to approach people on a surface interaction level before you can control them). Hence, I don't really want to control or be responsible for others either, precisely because of my social reservation.

It's kinda hard for me to track nowadays.

In the first half of my life, I was so socially anxious I had only a small select circle of friends and often would cry/break down if I had to go somewhere where I did not know anyone.

(The first time my parents tried to send me to camp, in 4th grade, I tried so hard to be brave -- I remember fighting to remain composed -- but after I just broke down and bawled for 45 minutes, they canceled and took me home... leaving me filled with shame AND relief. The next year, I still was terrified but stuck it out... and once I got past the first two days, I was okay even if I felt disconnected.)

In adulthood, today, I'm still overwhelmed by meeting groups of new people without an anchor there to steady me, but I also enjoy the newness of it and have more confidence.

But even after I know them, I hate telling them what to do. I mean, I loathe it. My strong natural instinct is to (1) provide information, then (2) get the heck out of the way and let them do their thing. About the easiest it ever got for me was with my kids... because I knew they were not adults and needed me to guide them more proactively -- but between me and the ISFJ parent, it's pretty clear which one of us finds it easier to dictate and direct vs inform and empower.

So for me, it comes out simply in wanting things my way, and then, if I feel more secure on the social level, I'll tend to readily cross boundaries in trying to make things my way or what I think makes sense. And, then, of course, I won't want anyone to control me either. Cognitively, it is explainable through the Ti+Ne.

I think so, as I described above. Except for the fact that I don't actually like it, even if I know the people well. Being a worship leader for a number of years was very hard for me because I would have a clear vision for where things had to go... but a total and complete reluctance to take charge and tell people what had to be done. I just wanted them to see what I saw, then act in alignment. When I left that position, I was both relieved and disappointed -- relieved that I no longer had to be directive, disappointed that I now had no way to implement my vision.

You also have the typical NTP argumentativeness or oneupmanship, which I also associate with the Choleric. It will obviously be more apparent for ENTP's, because of the extroversion.

True, that is the one area I see where it comes out. My natural instinct is to debate/push things (which I've been giving more rein to), but I usually dial it way back because I know it has ramifications on the social structure around me and value having freedom/flex within that social structure (because I've built up some social capital) to do my thing, rather than burning my capital on arguing issues that might not be of ultimate importance to me. [I.e., one-upping people will often lose you respect and flex space; instead, I work hard to integrate, and then I have a lot of flex space when I need to push something.]

Also, while I'm slow to start projects, once I do, I usually persevere until completion, and am pretty thorough.

I used to be, but don't have much "sticktoitness" nowadays, sigh.

That also would be tied to the immature Si+Fe. An NTJ's "Choleric" behavior will be from the Te+Ni, and yet since their wanted Inclusion will be low (Melancholy or Choleric), they will not desire to maintain connections like that. Matching this, their immature functions will be Se+Fi.

Now you've highlighted a difference I saw between me and the INTJs I've tried to bond with -- I was always puzzled by how they typically did not seem to show an interest in the overt way I did in pursuing/maintaining bonds, although it was clear they liked the people involved. I was far more active in pursuit of such things.

Control preference (especially for those whose Inclusion/Affection tends to interpersonal harmony) will be about how we react when this ideal inevitably does not work out.

Okay. Yes, I do the active interconnect thing... but if that fails me, I switch to "Okay, you do your thing, and I'll do mine, and I'm happy with that." I "release" them and myself...
... and get really mad if they come after me to exert some level of control.

Yeah, now I really wish she had come to our meetup. There don't seem to be many Supines in my circle. Be nice to see others for a change.

It was just a bad time for me. There was cost involved, and the weekend before I had just been across the country and was exhausted, and I was in crunch time at work and couldn't afford off...

.... and then... there was the SNOW. Arg.

But I would like to attend the next, if at all possible.

You also would have seen Jenocyde's Choleric side (in a particular incident), to give an illustration of what I was saying above.

Was that the one mentioned here, at the bar?

Here's what fits with what you are saying. My responses would have been as follows:
1. Try to accommodate/connect (the Supine thing).
2. Withdraw/Ignore.

But the third is the "okay, fine -- let's go at it" response, and I would have responded very similar.

I just don't like it because it commits me to a course of action = commits my energy to a course of action + burns bridges / spurs probable rejection and thus closure of options.

It just means I'm not expressive of a lot of affection or deep connection, however, I do generally respond to it.

yes, same here. I'm extremely responsive to other people's displays, if I am committed to the relationship; I just suck at initiation, and not because I do not care.

(Even when it means me leaving her to make decisions because I don't feel like being bothered with it at that point).

That was actually my normal mode for much of my marriage. I think nowadays I engage a lot more in decisions even if I do not want to be bothered, because I see the relationship as reciprocal and now empathize with the other person having to make lots of decisions without my input (it's not fair)... I feel engaged.

 

[Totenkindly]

Geez. No kidding, but this sounds like a "Care Manual for Female Conservative Christian ISFJs" I know. Literally, I could expect this list to be republished with that heading.

Special Things Significant Others Can Do For The Supine

* Tell them every day in words and actions that they are loved, needed, and appreciated.
* Try to understand their needs to socialize and provide them with the emotional support to do so. Supines are not initiators; therefore, significant others need to initiate socialization.
* Work very diligently to raise their self-image by reinforcing the positive and downplaying the negative.
* Help them make decisions, take on responsibilities, and share responsibility for the decisions they do make.
* Do not force Supines to act independently very often or for long periods of time.
* Never force Supines to be the disciplinarian of the family.
* Encourage them to give their input and state their preferences.
* Encourage them to be more assertive in sharing the things that make them angry.
* Accept their dependency without dominating them.
* Give Supines recognition for the service they perform.

What A Supine Can Do For Themselves

* Try to develop a deep, personal friendship with someone (preferably the Lord) with whom they can share decisions and responsibilities.
* Find employment or an environment where they can undertake tasks while interacting with people.
* Try to discover life situations where they are not forced to take on too much responsibility or perform as leaders but rather function in supportive roles.
* Learn to recognize their anger as anger and to deal with constructively.
* Learn how to be more assertive and to confront when confrontation becomes necessary. Supines need to voice their needs and desires.
* Provide themselves with situations where they can supplement their needs for love and affection by seeking more friends, social interaction, and a deeper relationship with the Lord.
* In order to diminish their anxiety and stress, learn to initiate telephone calls and
* read books or watch television program about people.

Behavior Changes To Bring A Supine Temperament Closer To God

* Learn to deal with anger constructively and in ways pleasing to God.
* Raise their self-perception by learning to see themselves as a wonderful, loved creation of God. This will make the fear of rejection from man less intense.
* Learn to lessen anxiety by interacting with God and Christ as they would any other surface relationship.
* Learn that God is always with them and will take care of them in order to lessen their fear.
* Learn that manipulation through emotional blackmail supersedes the will of God.
* Accept love and affection from God and Christ to supplement what they do not receive from human means. This will help prevent sexual sins.
* Learn to seek direction in making decisions from God and Christ. This will
* strengthen their will power.

 

[BlueFlame]

Then, we have Blue Flame, who has Supine in Inclusion, Sanguine Phlegmatic in Control, which would seem way off. Do you have questions about what your type is? (Your closing statement seems to indicate that). I notice you came close on Judging (58%), so if you were ENFP, then, it would be a bit closer. S-SP- I would expect for an ISFP. Could that be possible?

Then, both you and ENFPfer as extroverts, and Supines or Supine Phlegmatic in Inclusion. This is possible, as the Supine is said to have extroverted energies, because of the fact that they "want" (respond) as an extrovert. so that is not impossible (though Supine Phlegmatic will have only a moderate want, and is more likely a solid introvert).

Thanks for noticing my results lack logic
It could simply be user error, so I'll explain why I picked what I did.

Inclusion: Supine I definitely have the want of an extrovert, and I AM an extrovert energy-wise. But I do come across as shy (or stuck-up, I'm told) simply because I tend to be self-conscious and I try to get the feel of the situation and the hierarchy and things like that before I jump on in. I have a pretty high aversion to rejection, so I approach others FAR less than I would actually like, and I do feel very hurt when I'm excluded. I had a pretty traumatic childhood and was forced into isolation a lot, so I've just always attributed it to that.

Control: Sanguine-Phlegmatic Now that I re-read , I'm not sure that's the most accurate choice. I think I'm more of a Supine-Phlegmatic or Sanguine. I think I appear to be dependent because I abhor failure and I like the have the reassurance of people that are important to me, but in the end, I do what I want and what I think is right, and if anyone actually attempts to control me, I'll eat them alive . I really don't want control over other people. I want everyone to do their part to reach our common goals. I WILL attempt to exert control isf what you're doing negatively affects me, but I don't like it at all. But I do go through periods when I feel like I'm completely reliant on others, just because I've run out of my own energy or neglected myself to the point of not knowing what I want to do, anyway.

Affection: Phlegmatic-Choleric Like I said, I really had a hard time with this one. I'm not touchy feely at all outside of my husband and kids, and even then, I give a lot more than I actually require and feel very invaded when someone is laying it on too thick. Emotionally, I think I require a lot of non-physical affection to feel accepted by someone really close to me, but outside of that, I don't, but I tend to give a lot of it, which is why Is why I was also leaning toward Choleric-Phlegmatic.

As far as my type goes, I'm always unsure! I posted the more forgiving J/P percentage I've gotten...it's usually more along the lines of a 3% difference. My cognitive functions always show outrageous use of Fe, pretty closely followed by Ni/Ne and Te. Si and Ti tend to fall below that and Fi and Se are pretty low.
I've considered that I could be a very messed up ENFP or a very messed up ENFJ or something entirely different, but in the end, I function as more of an ENFJ when I'm healthy, and as more of an ISTP when unhealthy, with random habits that I picked up from my largely unhealthy ENFP mother.

So, in closing, no, I'm not sure of my type .

 

[INFtha14]

Well.. isn't that what codependent is?

People don't think "I want to be codependent." Instead, they see the world in a way that leads them to indulge in codependent behavior because they think it's the way it's supposed to be, and when they don't do the codependent thing, they feel overwhelming anxiety.

I definitely don't think people think that either. Maybe a naive vibe I give off, I've been told " she's got to be careful, people will take advantage of that ". Interesting...

(Note: Substitute various psychological conditions in lieu of codependence, to same effect.)

Your mom thinks it's wrong for you to be so aloof, or not to take care of her, or not allow her to take care of you. Because it unsettles her and she feels adrift, most likely.

This is true it seems. A big thing with my mother is she seems to have a hero complex, she needs people to need her I suppose. I'll always need her but not the way she wants.

My problem was that the family kept it veiled, then finally dumped it on me all at once. I was rather blindsided, but it was an eye-opener for how they were perceiving me and justified a lot of my intuitions about how they were interacting with me.

yikes!! All at once?

But I always was very independent. My parents didn't even know I could read until the kindergarten teacher sent home a note asking them if they knew. I sat around in my room playing records and reading the books that came along with them, until I apparently developed an extensive vocabulary. I find it interesting that, even at that age, I hid things from others.... at least, I think I actively hid my capabilities, because later in life I remember feeling anxious around my parents when they found out any of my capabilities.

Was this again part of autonomy developing, or was it fear of codependence and/or judgment? Interesting... that's funny I felt that way with any of my own interests or anything involving gaining autonomy Especially since that was a sensitive issue with her.

Maybe Fear of judgement of what they'd say to you? As I grew into my teens more I would keep more and more to myself from my parents/sisters for fear of them being judgemental/threatened by my autonomy? Maybe even a fear they'd try to take it away or limit me. Does that sound like a possibility for you? Hmm...

Yes, I grew up in a very SFJ environment (both family and religion).
Still not sure how much was innate and what I learned to feel shame for.

I would like to say that any Supine/approval-desiring behavior was a development, not innate, on my part... but the fact I was susceptible to it at all (since I know others who, even in that environ, have no trouble shrugging it off) makes me wary of thinking that even if it is palatable.

Yeah that must be tricky defining between the two.

 

[Totenkindly]

This is true it seems. A big thing with my mother is she seems to have a hero complex, she needs people to need her I suppose. I'll always need her but not the way she wants.

Oh.. yeah... you are not "playing your role" in the script. She has her role self-assigned, and like an actor who suddenly veers off the script and starts ad libbing her lines... you're throwing the story into confusion.

My problem was that the family kept it veiled, then finally dumped it on me all at once. I was rather blindsided, but it was an eye-opener for how they were perceiving me and justified a lot of my intuitions about how they were interacting with me.

yikes!! All at once?

Long story short, I made changes they didn't like... not in the least... so any tolerance they had given me for other things over the years suddenly got thrown in my face unexpectedly.

... I didn't stick to the script either!

Lesson #212: People like scripts.
(AKA "'Whose Line Is It Anyway?' isn't for everyone.")

Interesting... that's funny I felt that way with any of my own interests or anything involving gaining autonomy Especially since that was a sensitive issue with her. Maybe Fear of judgement of what they'd say to you? As I grew into my teens more I would keep more and more to myself from my parents/sisters for fear of them being judgemental/threatened by my autonomy? Maybe even a fear they'd try to take it away or limit me. Does that sound like a possibility for you? Hmm...

yes, I did that too. I never engaged my family much, I always withdrew and hid in my room.
I guess I did feel I would be judged if I was "bad" AKA "did not meet unspoken expectations" and I did not want to be a character in my parent's ongoing drama.

... but I did anyway, without planning to.
(I was the good kid who did not stir up trouble and did everything well.)

That's the problem for kids; they have no power to truly escape the drama.
Adults have more power and autonomy.

Anyway, I think you are onto something here!

Yes, I took disappointment in me by others pretty poorly, and both of my parents projected disappointment on me. So avoiding them altogether was the best.

I didn't want them to have any sense of what I could really do or not do, then they had no way to comment either way on it. I wanted to be accepted by them without running the risk of rejection by letting them know anything.

 

[INFtha14]

Oh.. yeah... you are not "playing your role" in the script. She has her role self-assigned, and like an actor who suddenly veers off the script and starts ad libbing her lines... you're throwing the story into confusion.

Long story short, I made changes they didn't like... not in the least... so any tolerance they had given me for other things over the years suddenly got thrown in my face unexpectedly.

... I didn't stick to the script either!

Lesson #212: People like scripts.
(AKA "'Whose Line Is It Anyway?' isn't for everyone.")

yes, I did that too. I never engaged my family much, I always withdrew and hid in my room.

I guess I did feel I would be judged if I was "bad" AKA "did not meet unspoken expectations" and I did not want to be a character in my parent's ongoing drama.

... but I did anyway, without planning to.
(I was the good kid who did not stir up trouble and did everything well.)

That's the problem for kids; they have no power to truly escape the drama.
Adults have more power and autonomy.

Anyway, I think you are onto something here!

Yes, I took disappointment in me by others pretty poorly, and both of my parents projected disappointment on me. So avoiding them altogether was the best.

I didn't want them to have any sense of what I could really do or not do, then they had no way to comment either way on it. I wanted to be accepted by them without running the risk of rejection by letting them know anything.

You got it Sister. It's like you get my predicament and I get your predicament. They seem very similar.

That's it. I need to meet you, your awesome haha. I could totally
see us going over our frustrations in a cafe or something.

OMG...that is too familar. I too have started to make changes
they didn't like/approve and it presented itself "even more" in receiving silent treatments/ even threats.

One point when I first informed family about my plans I literally got backed into a corner while being yelled at via mother. I actually felt fear for my physical life. But the bark is always bigger then the bite my friend .

With ya there *pushing against expections aka Script*

I even been talked to " Why do you always stay in your room?" heh..you would too when home haha.

Exactly i think some parents expect their children to be easily controlled like puppets on a string.

I can't look at people who are disappointed at me. I just like you withdraw internally feeling maybe even some shame.

Right on, cut off there power by distancing yourself just enough from giving them information that they'd need in order to do so.

Amen especially to that last paragraph.

 

[Kristiana]

Hi Eric!

Want to help me out here? I looked at all the profiles, and here is what I think fits me:

Inclusion: Phlegmatic-Melancholy, Melancholy, and Choleric-Phlegmatic fit me best. I tend to be very selective as for whom I let in my "inner circle," but am generally quite friendly (especially for an introvert).

Control: It's between Melancholy-Phlegmatic and Supine-Phlegmatic. I'm generally independent and prefer little control over me, and having little control over others. I don't mind having a boss if (s)he and I connect well and if she is kind and reasonable.

Affection: This one is trickiest for me to type myself. I am VERY affectionate with my husband, and I need a LOT of affection from him. I am not physically affectionate with almost everyone else (except relatives, but that's different). I don't mind physical affection from close friends but generally do not need much of it and rarely give it. Sanguine and Melancholy seemed to fit very well in some areas but very poorly in others.

MBTI: I'm a solid INTJ. Very very strong N. Low to moderate introvert. Low to moderate T. Moderate J. High Ni. Well developed Te but also well developed Fi and Ne.

Enneagram: I don't know for certain but a healthy 4 fits me fairly well. I would have definitely been an unhealthy-ish 4 when I was a young teenager.

 

[Eric B]

Sorry, not even sure what you are talking about!

You had said you had printed out my page, way back.

I think so, as I described above. Except for the fact that I don't actually like it, even if I know the people well. Being a worship leader for a number of years was very hard for me because I would have a clear vision for where things had to go... but a total and complete reluctance to take charge and tell people what had to be done. I just wanted them to see what I saw, then act in alignment. When I left that position, I was both relieved and disappointed -- relieved that I no longer had to be directive, disappointed that I now had no way to implement my vision.

True, that is the one area I see where it comes out. My natural instinct is to debate/push things (which I've been giving more rein to), but I usually dial it way back because I know it has ramifications on the social structure around me and value having freedom/flex within that social structure (because I've built up some social capital) to do my thing, rather than burning my capital on arguing issues that might not be of ultimate importance to me. [I.e., one-upping people will often lose you respect and flex space; instead, I work hard to integrate, and then I have a lot of flex space when I need to push something.]
Was that the one mentioned here, at the bar?

Yes, and it was actually over my wife and I! The guy was complaining because we weren't ordering beers.

Here's what fits with what you are saying. My responses would have been as follows:
1. Try to accommodate/connect (the Supine thing).
2. Withdraw/Ignore.

But the third is the "okay, fine -- let's go at it" response, and I would have responded very similar.

To me, I would not start a fight over that either. There are a lot worse things people have done so something like that was the least. I just figured it was some cranky old guy, so what can you expect from him? This would be the introversion, and I was in his place, so I did not feel he really crossed any boundary of mine.

Thanks for noticing my results lack logic
It could simply be user error, so I'll explain why I picked what I did.

Inclusion: Supine I definitely have the want of an extrovert, and I AM an extrovert energy-wise. But I do come across as shy (or stuck-up, I'm told) simply because I tend to be self-conscious and I try to get the feel of the situation and the hierarchy and things like that before I jump on in. I have a pretty high aversion to rejection, so I approach others FAR less than I would actually like, and I do feel very hurt when I'm excluded. I had a pretty traumatic childhood and was forced into isolation a lot, so I've just always attributed it to that.

I also forgot to mention, that ENJ is In Charge, and this is the Interaction Style, and involves social skills. That would seem the opposite of Supine.

Control: Sanguine-Phlegmatic Now that I re-read , I'm not sure that's the most accurate choice. I think I'm more of a Supine-Phlegmatic or Sanguine. I think I appear to be dependent because I abhor failure and I like the have the reassurance of people that are important to me, but in the end, I do what I want and what I think is right, and if anyone actually attempts to control me, I'll eat them alive . I really don't want control over other people. I want everyone to do their part to reach our common goals. I WILL attempt to exert control isf what you're doing negatively affects me, but I don't like it at all. But I do go through periods when I feel like I'm completely reliant on others, just because I've run out of my own energy or neglected myself to the point of not knowing what I want to do, anyway.

The pure Sanguine in Control has the independent-dependent swing. This I have associated with the SP's Se (leads them to seek stimulation and then cool off). Supine-Phlegmatic would make more sense for what you describe. The transition is not as dramatic as the "swing".

Affection: Phlegmatic-Choleric Like I said, I really had a hard time with this one. I'm not touchy feely at all outside of my husband and kids, and even then, I give a lot more than I actually require and feel very invaded when someone is laying it on too thick. Emotionally, I think I require a lot of non-physical affection to feel accepted by someone really close to me, but outside of that, I don't, but I tend to give a lot of it, which is why Is why I was also leaning toward Choleric-Phlegmatic.

This could well be what would make you "In Charge". I have acknowledged tha possibility that the Affection score could throw the correlation off. I also imagine that in some people, Affection could be the Interaction Style instead of Inclusion, as I assume. The Interaction Style covers interpersonal ("affective") skills, and the Inclusion/Affection categories simply divides this into surface social and deep personal. So Interaction Style could well justifiably be either area.

As far as my type goes, I'm always unsure! I posted the more forgiving J/P percentage I've gotten...it's usually more along the lines of a 3% difference. My cognitive functions always show outrageous use of Fe, pretty closely followed by Ni/Ne and Te. Si and Ti tend to fall below that and Fi and Se are pretty low.
I've considered that I could be a very messed up ENFP or a very messed up ENFJ or something entirely different, but in the end, I function as more of an ENFJ when I'm healthy, and as more of an ISTP when unhealthy, with random habits that I picked up from my largely unhealthy ENFP mother.

So, in closing, no, I'm not sure of my type .

Well, byt the cognitive processes, it would sound to lean more to ENFJ. So perhaps that's what you are, and again, your Interaction Style be Affection rather than Inclusion.

Hi Eric!

Want to help me out here? I looked at all the profiles, and here is what I think fits me:

Inclusion: Phlegmatic-Melancholy, Melancholy, and Choleric-Phlegmatic fit me best. I tend to be very selective as for whom I let in my "inner circle," but am generally quite friendly (especially for an introvert).

Control: It's between Melancholy-Phlegmatic and Supine-Phlegmatic. I'm generally independent and prefer little control over me, and having little control over others. I don't mind having a boss if (s)he and I connect well and if she is kind and reasonable.

Affection: This one is trickiest for me to type myself. I am VERY affectionate with my husband, and I need a LOT of affection from him. I am not physically affectionate with almost everyone else (except relatives, but that's different). I don't mind physical affection from close friends but generally do not need much of it and rarely give it. Sanguine and Melancholy seemed to fit very well in some areas but very poorly in others.

MBTI: I'm a solid INTJ. Very very strong N. Low to moderate introvert. Low to moderate T. Moderate J. High Ni. Well developed Te but also well developed Fi and Ne.

Enneagram: I don't know for certain but a healthy 4 fits me fairly well. I would have definitely been an unhealthy-ish 4 when I was a young teenager.

The Melancholy ranges in Inclusion would fit Chart the Course-INJ. Choleric Phlegmatic is squarely extroverted, and moderate in responsiveness. However, in Control, you got me completely beat.uch: And INTJ as Melancholy/Choleric was one of the most successful matches. So I don't know about that.

In affection, if you express a lot and need a lot, that sounds like Sanguine. I don't know why you would think it sounds like Melancholy as well. They often do not want a lot of affection (think of a woman whose attitude is "don't touch me") and do not give much.

 

[Charmed Justice]

Eric, I just wanted to explain my selections further now that I have a bit of time.

I decide upon Supine Phlegmatic for inclusion because of the ambiverted nature of the temperament. I've always been shy, reserved, commitment and service oriented, and relatively private. At the same time, I've also been quite a bit socially aggressive(social ladder climbing). As a young-er person, people viewed me as very outgoing, friendly, upbeat, popular, and enthusiastic. I have a handful of lifelong friends. I went through a traumatic period in my life and I changed in the process. I can't say that I'm remotely socially aggressive anymore. I turn down quite a number of opportunities to befriend people. The again, my priorities have changed, and I've apparently gotten older too. I never minded being alone though, or felt "lonely" in being by myself, so long as it was my decision and not a form of punishment. Journaling, reading, and daydreaming kept me occupied enough.

As far as control...I suppose I'm moderately controlling, mostly when I feel as though I'm being evaluated in some way or I'm fed-up about something. I have a real distaste for incompetence and piggy-backing in professional and academic environments and prefer that people be independent, prepared, and display know-how. I have been a manager, and found it fitting for my personality; although, I ideally prefer egalitarian environments. I've worked for myself for years now, and I enjoy that as well. In general, I don't mind answering to other people in a work environment. I accept more control than I appreciate in my personal life, but tend to trust that people will do as they do, and am optimistic that those things will be in the best interest of those involved.

 

[Kristiana]

The Melancholy ranges in Inclusion would fit Chart the Course-INJ. Choleric Phlegmatic is squarely extroverted, and moderate in responsiveness. However, in Control, you got me completely beat.uch: And INTJ as Melancholy/Choleric was one of the most successful matches. So I don't know about that.

In affection, if you express a lot and need a lot, that sounds like Sanguine. I don't know why you would think it sounds like Melancholy as well. They often do not want a lot of affection (think of a woman whose attitude is "don't touch me") and do not give much.

For the affection, I am very Sanguine with my husband, but only with my husband. The Melancholy part fits in where I said, "I am not physically affectionate with almost everyone else (except relatives, but that's different). I don't mind physical affection from close friends but generally do not need much of it and rarely give it."

I wouldn't say I am the don't-touch-me type, but I am not touchy feely at all either (except with my husband). Does that still sound like Sanguine?