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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    CONTROL: Who maintains the POWER and makes the DECISIONS for the relationship
    Actually here, I now see much strong MP methodology.
    Melancholy ("I don't control you, so please don't try to control me"), that is a BIG part of me **
    + Phlegmatic (Democratic; "Let's all be Boss!")... I expect others to chip in their two cents and help make the decisions.

    Same for my intimate relationships too.
    - I want my SO to not control me, because I don't try to control them.
    - I want us to make decisions together about our relationship.

    AFFECTION: How emotionally CLOSE or FAR the relationship
    Sigh. Yup, Supine ("emotionally CLOSE, but you must reach out to me"),
    + Phlegmatic ("moderate; take it or leave it")

    So maybe my code is really SP-MP-SP
    :O Are you my twin? *refering to the statements made for Control in M-P/and Affection in S-P.*

    Sounds alot like how i go about things. I could see that as a definite possibility with how much I relate to what you say Jenn.

    In my intimate relations I definitely see a whole "don't control me, I don't control you kind of vibe". This actually has caused quite abit of conflict with my mother and I.

    Cause when she'd be expressing care to me sometimes it would seem like she was trying to control my life *technically she was but her intentions were not to purely control. She was and is afraid of losing her daughters as they seperate from her aka Grow up.*

    I actually get really upset when someone tries to control my decisions.
    Either on board or get off the "train". Don't have to like my decision with my life but can at least respect them as mine and my own. * "take it or leave it" as a responding phlegmatic in Control.*

    And a big yes to the Supine-Phlegmatic in not expecting others to read my mind.

    I actually get frustrated when others expect me to read there's when it only ends in confusion and frustration.

    I definitely as Supine-phlegmatic in Affection need a strong assertive cue to know what to do and if it's wanted. I can definitely seem indifferent which is too far from the truth in what's happening internally. Sounds like a very definite possibility Jenn. I'm no expert haha just I could have wrote what you did for Control/Affection.

    That's so cool that You and Eric B are Supines :O. Wow...Interesting.
    What is Feeling?
    Feeling is primarily a process.....that imparts to the content a definite value in the sense of acceptance or rejection. In the same way that thinking organizes the contents of consciousness under concepts, feeling arranges them according to their value. Feeling, like thinking, is a rational function, since values in general are assigned according to the laws of reason...
    (Carl Jung, Psychological Types, Chapter XI - Definitions)

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duchessoftheshadows View Post
    In my intimate relations I definitely see a whole "don't control me, I don't control you kind of vibe". This actually has caused quite abit of conflict with my mother and I.

    Cause when she'd be expressing care to me sometimes it would seem like she was trying to control my life *technically she was but her intentions were not to purely control. She was and is afraid of losing her daughters as they seperate from her aka Grow up.*
    That is exactly my experience with some sort of people. At this point in my life, I realize some people in my family and elsewhere have taken my independence as rejection, even if I never rejected them... but just expected me to take care of me and them to take care of me. They were thinking I should have taken care of them or gone out of my way to do something for them, if I cared.

    Whereas for me it was a sign of respect that I thought they would look after themselves and it was just natural for someone to want to do so.

    I actually get really upset when someone tries to control my decisions.
    Either on board or get off the "train". Don't have to like my decision with my life but can at least respect them as mine and my own. * "take it or leave it" as a responding phlegmatic in Control.*
    I usually just withdraw, if I can... so they can't control me. And to prevent me from controlling them.

    I definitely as Supine-phlegmatic in Affection need a strong assertive cue to know what to do and if it's wanted.
    Yeah. I guess someone else might just ask, or do something anyway when they are not sure, but especially with my ex -- the rules have changed and I no longer get "cues" to follow, so who knows what our relationship is supposed to be? And I don't like to intrude so... I keep trying to judge the cues but damnably never take initiative just to express MY feelings as they might be... and end up getting surprised by something when rituals unexpectedly still get followed. Once I get a cue, I'm good; but it's even hard for me to realize I'm waiting for a cue, it catches me unawares.


    That's so cool that You and Eric B are Supines :O.
    I guess it is.

    I'm still wrestling with what it means.

    I really don't like being someone who has such a strong desire for approval/acceptance. I don't even know why I care so badly or why it hurts when I don't get it, so I've had to learn to live without. I wish I didn't care... because I still have that instinctive autonomy sense and I can take care of myself just fine.

    I've worked very hard to become someone who can take it in stride and not let it derail me. But the desire frustrates me.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That is exactly my experience with some sort of people. At this point in my life, I realize some people in my family and elsewhere have taken my independence as rejection, even if I never rejected them... but just expected me to take care of me and them to take care of me. They were thinking I should have taken care of them or gone out of my way to do something for them, if I cared.

    Whereas for me it was a sign of respect that I thought they would look after themselves and it was just natural for someone to want to do so.

    Right on Jennifer. This is definitely my mind set, why would someone make someone go out of there way for them when they clearly are not being hindered in anyway to do so themselves?

    I usually just withdraw, if I can... so they can't control me. And to prevent me from controlling them.

    ^
    Yeah. I guess someone else might just ask, or do something anyway when they are not sure, but especially with my ex -- the rules have changed and I no longer get "cues" to follow, so who knows what our relationship is supposed to be? And I don't like to intrude so... I keep trying to judge the cues but damnably never take initiative just to express MY feelings as they might be... and end up getting surprised by something when rituals unexpectedly still get followed. Once I get a cue, I'm good; but it's even hard for me to realize I'm waiting for a cue, it catches me unawares.

    That's definitely something I relate with. Absolute difficulty with initiative in regards to emotions/where I stand. It feels very uncomfortable when there is no cue as to know how to react and where to go in terms of a relationship in general. It's almost like I don't know how to initiate? Does that relate?

    I guess it is.

    I'm still wrestling with what it means.

    I really don't like being someone who has such a strong desire for approval/acceptance. I don't even know why I care so badly or why it hurts when I don't get it, so I've had to learn to live without. I wish I didn't care... because I still have that instinctive autonomy sense and I can take care of myself just fine.

    I've worked very hard to become someone who can take it in stride and not let it derail me. But the desire frustrates me.
    Wow... you just described the main issue with my mother/sister 1 and me.
    I think my mother is offended by how independent/Self-directed I am which of course I never intend to offend. She tries to manipulate me with what I want *freedom* and doesn't realize that her backing off doesn't give the desired affect only confusion when she acts a tad bit hostile in her tone.

    You know what's scary people like that seem like they want you to be co-dependent on them and they are to you. That's at least how I perceived my mother.

    I also definitely have the mantra which you mentioned something above that fitted well "if you can do something yourself you should do it yourself then cause if your expecting someone to take care of you when you are fully capable... well in my eyes that's absolutely selfish. I've been called cold/selfish/ " You don't care" all because this is how I see certain situations.

    I think my mother is if I'm remembering correctly Supine in Control/Affection Definitely for inclusion. She's SFJ so that Fe in her code probably just adds to the flavor of Supine.

    Yeah it took quite awhile to grasp what it all was suppose to mean and how it connected with Expressive and Responsive. Which is really fascinating .

    .
    What is Feeling?
    Feeling is primarily a process.....that imparts to the content a definite value in the sense of acceptance or rejection. In the same way that thinking organizes the contents of consciousness under concepts, feeling arranges them according to their value. Feeling, like thinking, is a rational function, since values in general are assigned according to the laws of reason...
    (Carl Jung, Psychological Types, Chapter XI - Definitions)

  4. #64
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    Inclusion Phlegmatic-Sanguine

    Control either Phlegmatic-Sanguine or Melancholy-Phlegmatic

    Affection one of the Sanguines definitely...I don't know, because I don't agree with every single point of one or the other, but it's one of the Sanguines

  5. #65
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    Inclusion: Supine Phlegmatic
    Control: Phleg Mel or just Phleg. Phleg Choleric makes a lot of sense, but I am tolerant of a moderate amount of control...until I'm not.
    Affection: Phleg Mel

    ...as best as I can tell. ^Pretty difficult to do.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  6. #66
    Senior Member BlueFlame's Avatar
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    Inclusion: Supine -
    Control: Sanguine Phlegmatic
    Affection: Phlegmatic Choleric - I had trouble with this one. It was a bit too extreme, but the closest I could find!

    Apparently, I have low energy reserves.
    I'm pretty sure all my types should have the title: Hot Mess, and we can just leave it at that.

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    Enneagram Type: SX 3w2

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I did skim through some of the stuff on your site. (Sorry, I was amazed at the quantity of material you have and hope to read through it -- it's just very "thick" and is going to take me awhile... wow!) So I did see snippets of your discussion on this, the INP/ISF connection, etc., when you did the cross-comparisons between systems.
    Are you still using the volume you printed out years ago? For the first page, it will still be pretty much the same, but page two (originally the longest one, dealing with MBTI) has since been broken down into several smaller parts, if you ever still plan to read that. (2, introducing MBTI from scratch; 2a how I evolved the correlation, another page that is a shorter essay on the correlation, 3, the other systems, and 4, the "dynamic type" idea with 81 types and jackandthebeast's "76 Types" function tables).
    I guess the big thing with me is that the only amount of control I have ever really expressed is through the Phlegmatic, I have no real Choleric flavor in me at all. I demand control over myself, but I really do not like having control over other people directly; I don't like being a supervisor in a job setting; I don't like being in charge of groups EXCEPT that it allows me to make sure that the strategy/direction is correct... thus a necessary evil. I really like other people to rise to the occasion on their own and be self-directive.
    I'm basically like that too, because the Supine and Choleric are diametric opposites, and it's like a tug of war at times. Even though Control covers leadership and responsibilities, the speed at which we tend to undertake responsibilities is nevertheless tied to our Inclusion temperament. (I know, that can throw you off, but it does make sense, for you usually have to approach people on a surface interaction level before you can control them).
    Hence, I don't really want to control or be responsible for others either, precisely because of my social reservation.

    So for me, it comes out simply in wanting things my way, and then, if I feel more secure on the social level, I'll tend to readily cross boundaries in trying to make things my way or what I think makes sense. And, then, of course, I won't want anyone to control me either. Cognitively, it is explainable through the Ti+Ne.
    You also have the typical NTP argumentativeness or oneupmanship, which I also associate with the Choleric. It will obviously be more apparent for ENTP's, because of the extroversion.

    Also, since the Supine has the high want of social and deep personal interaction, yet not the expressive mechanism to gain it, I end up using the expressed Control (to compensate for the expressed Inclusion). Hence, I can track down and maintain contact with old friends/acquaintances that most would have long let go of; if I miss a person or group, find out the general area they will be in, and I usually find them, even in a large, crowded area. eC doesn't provide the social graces to be popular enough to have them come to me like eI does, but eC can sure find them.
    Also, while I'm slow to start projects, once I do, I usually persevere until completion, and am pretty thorough.
    (Hence, "Mission Impossible" as the FIRO name on the chart).

    That also would be tied to the immature Si+Fe. An NTJ's "Choleric" behavior will be from the Te+Ni, and yet since their wanted Inclusion will be low (Melancholy or Choleric), they will not desire to maintain connections like that. Matching this, their immature functions will be Se+Fi.

    The ideal for me would be a community with a shared vision where everyone takes responsible to contribute the most that they can for the good of the group... and thus i'm responsible for me and everyone else can be autonomous as well.

    It's like "Informative" taken to the max setting.
    That's probably an ideal most anyone can hold (except perhaps a Choleric compulsive in Control, or an unhealthy person), but Control preference (especially for those whose Inclusion/Affection tends to interpersonal harmony) will be about how we react when this ideal inevitably does not work out.

    Yes, I'm 5w4. EXTREME wing. I always score higher in Five, and the description fits me better than 4w5... but I'm the bare number of points up the scale on Five. The next highest is Nine, and it's not nearly as close as the 4 and 5 are to each other.

    I noticed on your chart that you had MP/SP on the Four node... and INP.
    I've kind of stepped back from the APS-Enneagram correlation for now, since enneagram is structured so differently. Like INTP's being so 5 rather than necessarily IST, INJ or SJ being that type. I would think so=Inclusion, sp=Control and sx=affection; and INTP's would be 9so8sp5sx or maybe 6so1sp5sx (and me, 6so8sp6sx), and this average out to a 5w6 or 5w4, but it is of course not structured that way.
    The types do still seem to fit when mapped to expressive/responsive like that, though; hence you having such a strong 4 wing.
    ... the other thing I'll clarify from my prior post is that I sounded rather casual in my Supine-ish desire to connect? It's not really casual at all. It's one of those "deep pangs" where I feel a void and sense of deep loss if I don't connect with someone... see "sx" variant on the enneagram. I am driving to connect with the "real person" under all the surface stuff. But I also have this extreme sense of autonomy so if someone draws a hard boundary, I will never cross it nor bug them, almost to a fault, aside from an occasion line I will put in the water just so they know I'm open... but inside it hurts like hell, like I chopped off a finger. On the surface, I keep everything casual; inside, everything is very extreme and the two forces have to be intense in order to balance each other.

    I feel very much like I've always had two extreme forces warring with each other inside, keeping each other in balance.
    Yeah, that's the typical Supine frustration as emphasized in the APS manuals. It is believed that the temperament was missed for all those milennia, because on the surface they look so much like a regular Melancholy (or perhaps, Phlegmatic), and yet, nobody evwer knows they have this deep need that those two temperaments don't. The need equals that of the Sanguine, but the Sanguine, of course, expresses to others, and naturally gains the interaction they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duchessoftheshadows View Post
    That's so cool that You and Eric B are Supines :O. Wow...Interesting.
    Yeah, now I really wish she had come to our meetup. There don't seem to be many Supines in my circle. Be nice to see others for a change.
    You also would have seen Jenocyde's Choleric side (in a particular incident), to give an illustration of what I was saying above.

    Also, I should clarify, the Affection temperament is not determined by who controls who in deep personal relations. That would be Control. Once in the deep relationship, then the Control behavior will also affect the interaction in that area. My being supine in Affection doesn't mean I want to be controlled in my deep personal relation, like my marriage. It just means I'm not expressive of a lot of affection or deep connection, however, I do generally respond to it. I tend to be more controlling of the relationship because of the Control. (Even when it means me leaving her to make decisions because I don't feel like being bothered with it at that point).
    So since both of you discussing that are moderate in both Control and Affection, it will be similar anyway; just to make clear that you don't look to the Affection temperament for who controls the relationship.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  8. #68
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    As for the others that have just been posting, the pattern is solidly NF's scoring on the "Phlegmatic cross" (the moderate gray areas on the map) in the Control area, with a concentration towards the upper left, which is the direction I had expected NF to lie in. For instance, marmalade having Phlegmatic Sanguine OR Melancholy Phlegmatic.

    What I think might be happening, is that the Supine descriptions are emphasizing "dependency" to an extent that is a bit too extreme for people, especially familiar with MBTI/KTT type, which really does not associate dependency with any type at all. This made me have to think twice when putting together the correlation. So it is something not familiar as a type/temperament trait, and most have not thought about it. So then, you end up on these neighboring moderate ranges.
    Of course, the most accurate way to sort it out is the actual test (APS, FIRO-B, or another one called WorleyID).
    That would give a definite score, and you could perhaps be e/wC=3/6, or somewhere in that area, where you're still in the Supine range (including the "Loyal Lieutenant" section), yet are more moderate in dependency needs, yet not as moderate to fit the pure Phlegmatic description ("Matcher") which lies in dead center.
    (I sound like I'm selling something, but I'm not. I know it is a hassle for something to cost so much. Wish it was free, like a trial or something at least).

    Then, we have Blue Flame, who has Supine in Inclusion, Sanguine Phlegmatic in Control, which would seem way off. Do you have questions about what your type is? (Your closing statement seems to indicate that). I notice you came close on Judging (58%), so if you were ENFP, then, it would be a bit closer. S-SP- I would expect for an ISFP. Could that be possible?

    Then, both you and ENFPfer as extroverts, and Supines or Supine Phlegmatic in Inclusion. This is possible, as the Supine is said to have extroverted energies, because of the fact that they "want" (respond) as an extrovert. so that is not impossible (though Supine Phlegmatic will have only a moderate want, and is more likely a solid introvert).

    And I see ENFPfer has dropped both the E and P in the profile type. So are you now reconsidering your type also?
    SP-P- would seem to be an INFP. Phlegmatic Melancholy and Phlegmatic Choleric in Control both lie between Melancholy and Choleric. But since you mention both, as well as "just Phleg", then you seem to lean towards a general Phlegmatic in Control, which would make sense for NF, which seems to be your most self-assured preference.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  9. #69
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Yes, I'm reconsidering my type too. I heard most everybody's doing it.

    The Supine Phleg for Inclusion seemed like the best fit; although, there's enough about that selection that really doesn't fit, and I wonder if I'm perhaps focusing on the wrong things/circumstances.

    Phlegmatic in Control works for me.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  10. #70
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duchessoftheshadows View Post
    ...You know what's scary people like that seem like they want you to be co-dependent on them and they are to you.
    Well.. isn't that what codependent is?

    People don't think "I want to be codependent." Instead, they see the world in a way that leads them to indulge in codependent behavior because they think it's the way it's supposed to be, and when they don't do the codependent thing, they feel overwhelming anxiety.

    (Note: Substitute various psychological conditions in lieu of codependence, to same effect.)

    Your mom thinks it's wrong for you to be so aloof, or not to take care of her, or not allow her to take care of you. Because it unsettles her and she feels adrift, most likely.

    I also definitely have the mantra which you mentioned something above that fitted well "if you can do something yourself you should do it yourself then cause if your expecting someone to take care of you when you are fully capable... well in my eyes that's absolutely selfish. I've been called cold/selfish/ " You don't care" all because this is how I see certain situations.
    My problem was that the family kept it veiled, then finally dumped it on me all at once. I was rather blindsided, but it was an eye-opener for how they were perceiving me and justified a lot of my intuitions about how they were interacting with me.

    But I always was very independent. My parents didn't even know I could read until the kindergarten teacher sent home a note asking them if they knew. I sat around in my room playing records and reading the books that came along with them, until I apparently developed an extensive vocabulary. I find it interesting that, even at that age, I hid things from others.... at least, I think I actively hid my capabilities, because later in life I remember feeling anxious around my parents when they found out any of my capabilities.

    Was this again part of autonomy developing, or was it fear of codependence and/or judgment?

    I think my mother is if I'm remembering correctly Supine in Control/Affection Definitely for inclusion. She's SFJ so that Fe in her code probably just adds to the flavor of Supine.
    Yes, I grew up in a very SFJ environment (both family and religion).
    Still not sure how much was innate and what I learned to feel shame for.

    I would like to say that any Supine/approval-desiring behavior was a development, not innate, on my part... but the fact I was susceptible to it at all (since I know others who, even in that environ, have no trouble shrugging it off) makes me wary of thinking that even if it is palatable.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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