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  1. #51
    :) INFtha14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Well; I guess that's close enough. (Supine Phlegmatic in Control in the SJ range).

    I meant as her primary perception, as opposed to a less mature tertiary Si used to find "relief".


    You're Welcome.
    Again, you can see a particular function in anybody, but what determines its place in type is what role it plays. But if you think he's an Fe user, then as a Phlegmatic, he could be ISFJ, Phlegmatic in Inclusion/Melancholy in Control. Otherwise, it does sound like INFP, and any Fe you saw would be oppositional, or perhaps not true Fe.
    From looking over "introduction to the personality type code" book at the descriptions of Dominant, supporting, and tertiary of Si.

    Sounds like she uses Si in a supporting role coupled with a very possible leading Fe. I'd say ESFJ fits pretty good .

    I definitely saw a "nostagic" use of his Si similar to how I use mine.

    I'd say Melancholy in control but he didn't seem very strong willed and independent from what I got to know of my father.

    He seemed to just want to be able to do what he wanted and to do it with as little of a fuss as possible.

    I can see this " Expresses very little control over the lives and behaviors of others, and will not tolerate control over his/her life and behavior".

    I don't know about highly independent and strong willed. My mother told me how she wanted him to fight and argue with her but he just wouldn't.

    She'd complain to him or address something and he'd shrug it off. It seemed he just wanted to simply be and not have much fuss in his day to day life.

    From what I hear from my mother he wasn't self motivated, she had to pretty much keep on with him about getting this or doing that.

    He'd retreat if any perceived failure was brought *via arguement with mother* to light by going to his room.

    He'd be visibly bothered by whatever was addressed but he'd walk away from it in frustration and probably from his ego being bruised.

    I've seen this many times and it confused me.

    " Becomes angry if confronted for mistakes, criticized or made to look foolish.*

    I could see INFP as a very potential possibility as tertiary Si was very evident in his personality from what I saw of him and where we connected *Ne-Si especially*.

    I'm thinking phlegmatic-mel for Inclusion.

    I felt like he understood me and in alot of my imaginative ways as a kid.
    I would think a phlegmatic in control? What do you think from what I say in the above?

    What is Feeling?
    Feeling is primarily a process.....that imparts to the content a definite value in the sense of acceptance or rejection. In the same way that thinking organizes the contents of consciousness under concepts, feeling arranges them according to their value. Feeling, like thinking, is a rational function, since values in general are assigned according to the laws of reason...
    (Carl Jung, Psychological Types, Chapter XI - Definitions)

  2. #52
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    OK, so it looks like pure Phlegmatic INFP for your father, and some form of Supine in Inclusion and Affection and Supine Phlegmatic in Control edging into SFJ for your mother.
    Last edited by Eric B; 02-09-2010 at 05:28 PM.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  3. #53
    :) INFtha14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    OK, so it looks like pure Phlegmatic INFP for your father, and some form of Supine in Inclusion and Ffection and Supine Phlegmatic in Control edging into SFJ for your mother.
    Yeah that's what it seems like for both parents.

    Thank you Eric B .
    What is Feeling?
    Feeling is primarily a process.....that imparts to the content a definite value in the sense of acceptance or rejection. In the same way that thinking organizes the contents of consciousness under concepts, feeling arranges them according to their value. Feeling, like thinking, is a rational function, since values in general are assigned according to the laws of reason...
    (Carl Jung, Psychological Types, Chapter XI - Definitions)

  4. #54
    nevermore lane777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lane777 View Post
    I took the professional APS test several months ago. For those who care to know how an INFJ scores, here are my results:

    Inclusion: Compulsive Melancholy
    Control: Supine
    Affection: Phlegmatic - Melancholy

    I plan on taking the test again (eventually), so whenever that happens, I'll post those results here.
    I thought it might be helpful to point out that prior to the test, I tried typing myself and came up with this:

    Inclusion: Supine
    Control: Phlegmatic
    Affection: Phlegmatic (I remember being very confident about this one.)

    And I thought I knew myself pretty well ... typing yourself is not a very good alternative to taking the test if you're bent on accuracy.
    To die would be an awfully big adventure - Peter Pan

    INFJ ~ 4w5 sp/sx ~ RLOAI ~ Inclusion e/w=1/0 (Melancholy Compulsive) Control: e/w=0/6 (Supine) Affection: e/w=4/0 (Phlegmatic Melancholy)

  5. #55
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Yes, and this also explains why you bounce between the types you do. Here is the FIRO/APS matrix:

    The APS temperaments are in black, and the colorful stuff are the Leo Ryan FIRO names for the score ranges (which differ according to I, C & A, and the boundaries even differ).

    Choleric in Inclusion + Phlegmatic in Control = ENFJ;
    I guess I'm C-P-???

    Choleric in Inclusion is a really nice description of my socializing:

    General description of people who are Choleric in Inclusion:

    1. Extrovert of a highly selective nature.
    2. Approaches many people for association and socialization but actually wants to associate with only a select few.
    3. Uses ability to socialize as a screening device, selecting those individuals with whom he/she wishes to associate.
    4. Chooses social events that meet her needs and desires.
    5. The few people he/she chooses to associate with must meet a criteria that is in his/her mind.

    6. Fast-paced -- prefers working at a furious pace.
    7. Task-oriented -- relates better to tasks and systems than to people.
    8. Tough-minded, strong-willed -- once his/her mind is made up, he/she has a hard time changing it.
    9. Needs recognition for accomplishment
    However, some parts of Choleric Phlegmatic fit better


    Phlegmatic in Control seems perfect:

    1. Independent, self-motivated.
    2. Expresses a moderate amount of control over the lives and behaviors of others and will allow only a moderate amount of control over his/her life and behavior.
    3. Capable of making decisions and taking on responsibilities, but prefers to share responsibilities and decisions rather than doing it alone -- prefers team work.
    4. Very democratic -- expects others to work as hard as he/she does and to carry their part of the load.
    5. When he/she must take a stand against popular opinion, he/she will attempt to motivate others to take action because he/she lacks the energy to take any real action himself/herself.

    6. Uses a "dry" (sometimes witty, often sarcastic) sense of humor as a defense mechanism to prevent others from motivating him/her -- this is to protect his/her low energy reserve.
    Im confused between Choleric or Phlegmatic for the "Affection" score. Any tips?

  6. #56
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I believe that either C or CP in Inclusion would fit In Charge (ENJ). CP means that you respond more moderately than a regular Choleric. And Phlegmatic in Control is one of the ranges that seems to correspond to NF.
    Affection could be anything, and would not really affect the type correlation. That's really Inclusion and Control. I believe it may affect Enneagram wing, however. Like an ENFP 7w8 is probably Choleric in Affection, because he apparently has some Choleric in there somewhere (the 8 wing), and it's not likely the Inclusion (ENP) or Control (NF).

    So whichever one between those two fits you better is likely it.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  7. #57
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I believe that either C or CP in Inclusion would fit In Charge (ENJ). CP means that you respond more moderately than a regular Choleric. And Phlegmatic in Control is one of the ranges that seems to correspond to NF.
    Affection could be anything, and would not really affect the type correlation. That's really Inclusion and Control. I believe it may affect Enneagram wing, however. Like an ENFP 7w8 is probably Choleric in Affection, because he apparently has some Choleric in there somewhere (the 8 wing), and it's not likely the Inclusion (ENP) or Control (NF).

    So whichever one between those two fits you better is likely it.
    well my 9 wing (1w9) leans more phlegmatic I'd guess. Then again, I have some "bow before your master!" qualities in relationships...maybe I am choleric in affection

  8. #58
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Okay, this is all pretty weird.

    I had taken the original Five Trait Temperament test and have consistently come up as Melancholy and then almost Phlegmatic being equal, then Supine the obvious but a bit further back third. So I looked at all the MP readings first.

    But when I reviewed the temperament types for Inclusion, Control, and Affection on that site, I found I matched up with other patterns... to whit:

    Inclusion: Supine-Phlegmatic (SP) ...or Supine (S)
    Control: Supine-Phlegmatic (SP) ...or Melancholy-Phlegmatic (MP)
    Affection: Supine-Phlegmatic (SP)

    For Inclusion, I used to act far more Supine c9oming out of mucked-up childhood but seem to have stabilized at SP.

    These are the best fits. With each, there's usually an item or two that isn't quite right.


    EXCEPT....

    Just for kicks I went to your web page and found one of your tables there, and actually, it makes a lot of sense:

    INCLUSION: Who is IN or OUT of the relationship
    Supine ("Everybody IN; but you must reach out and invite me!")
    + some Phlegmatic lack of energy ("Take 'em or leave 'em").

    Supine really resonates with me here. I just really don't have much desire to keep people away from me and actually want to connect with them... IF they are willing. But if they don't seem interested or don't give me cues that they are interested esp if I do try to initiate things once, I just don't invest more in it... even if I really wanted to be close to them. Phlegmatic = everyone is their own boss = Even if I desire something more, "no apparent interest/cues" means I'll just typically leave them alone. If I'm humming along steadily in a connective mood, I'll actually extend olive branches and leave opportunities to connect... but otherwise will not push things.

    In an intimate relationship:
    - I get confused if I don't get cues for too long from my SO, and wonder what to do. Nowadays I'll ask though.
    - Even when I love someone, I seem to find it easy to just allow things to drift along without forcing a connection. It comes off as indifference, but I don't feel indifferent. I'm just "going along" with what's in place.


    CONTROL: Who maintains the POWER and makes the DECISIONS for the relationship
    Actually here, I now see much strong MP methodology.
    Melancholy ("I don't control you, so please don't try to control me"), that is a BIG part of me
    + Phlegmatic (Democratic; "Let's all be Boss!")... I expect others to chip in their two cents and help make the decisions.

    Contrary to what some might think, I really don't like telling others what to do or making them do things. I'd rather they just did it themselves, and let me make my own decisions -- everyone contributes independently. As far as this particular moderation job goes, the best part of my experience has always been being in a position where I can use my energy to help someone else when they bring an issue to attention, plus getting to connect with someone I would not have talked to except that they contacted me. I really don't like having to enforce much or make a lot of decisions on the fly and get frustrated when I have to.

    Same for my intimate relationships too.
    - I want my SO to not control me, because I don't try to control them.
    - I want us to make decisions together about our relationship.

    AFFECTION: How emotionally CLOSE or FAR the relationship
    Sigh. Yup, Supine ("emotionally CLOSE, but you must reach out to me"),
    + Phlegmatic ("moderate; take it or leave it")

    The Phlegmatic makes me invest more and make it "even steven," I don't expect people to read my mind and if I DON'T say something to them, I don't really expect them to extend themselves; but I definitely have that "I want to be close to you" vibe while still need a cue before I can engage and do the "even steven" thing.

    In intimate relationships:
    - I need the cues, to know they desire me; i want to be close to them but have trouble if I haven't gotten a cue for awhile or things seem like they might have changed.
    - As far as physical affection, same thing... take it or leave it, and I can't give more than I feel at the time.

    So maybe my code is really SP-MP-SP
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #59
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Oh, wow. Another fellow Supine after all!

    Sure not Phlegmatic Choleric (at least), in Control (To be the match for NT)? :ouch:
    A pure SP (all three areas, and MP is next to SP) I would think would be an INFP, and you do have the T lowercase, and seem a little bit like an INFP in your personal reflections. So for an INTP to come out as this combo, this would make sense for one apparently more in touch with Feeling.

    Wouldn't be an E4 as well, would you? That type struck me as very MP/SP. Perhaps 4w5 or 5w4? I think I remember you as some kind of 5, but I forget.
    (And again, this is likely to be far more accurate than the trait list).
    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    well my 9 wing (1w9) leans more phlegmatic I'd guess. Then again, I have some "bow before your master!" qualities in relationships...maybe I am choleric in affection
    That's probably just the influence of the Inclusion. That will naturally still come to play in your relationships that are also deep/personal as well.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  10. #60
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Oh, wow. Another fellow Supine after all!

    Sure not Phlegmatic Choleric (at least), in Control (To be the match for NT)? :ouch:
    A pure SP (all three areas, and MP is next to SP) I would think would be an INFP, and you do have the T lowercase, and seem a little bit like an INFP in your personal reflections. So for an INTP to come out as this combo, this would make sense for one apparently more in touch with Feeling.
    I did skim through some of the stuff on your site. (Sorry, I was amazed at the quantity of material you have and hope to read through it -- it's just very "thick" and is going to take me awhile... wow!) So I did see snippets of your discussion on this, the INP/ISF connection, etc., when you did the cross-comparisons between systems.

    I guess the big thing with me is that the only amount of control I have ever really expressed is through the Phlegmatic, I have no real Choleric flavor in me at all. I demand control over myself, but I really do not like having control over other people directly; I don't like being a supervisor in a job setting; I don't like being in charge of groups EXCEPT that it allows me to make sure that the strategy/direction is correct... thus a necessary evil. I really like other people to rise to the occasion on their own and be self-directive. The ideal for me would be a community with a shared vision where everyone takes responsible to contribute the most that they can for the good of the group... and thus i'm responsible for me and everyone else can be autonomous as well.

    It's like "Informative" taken to the max setting.

    Wouldn't be an E4 as well, would you? That type struck me as very MP/SP. Perhaps 4w5 or 5w4? I think I remember you as some kind of 5, but I forget.
    Yes, I'm 5w4. EXTREME wing. I always score higher in Five, and the description fits me better than 4w5... but I'm the bare number of points up the scale on Five. The next highest is Nine, and it's not nearly as close as the 4 and 5 are to each other.

    I noticed on your chart that you had MP/SP on the Four node... and INP.

    ... the other thing I'll clarify from my prior post is that I sounded rather casual in my Supine-ish desire to connect? It's not really casual at all. It's one of those "deep pangs" where I feel a void and sense of deep loss if I don't connect with someone... see "sx" variant on the enneagram. I am driving to connect with the "real person" under all the surface stuff. But I also have this extreme sense of autonomy so if someone draws a hard boundary, I will never cross it nor bug them, almost to a fault, aside from an occasion line I will put in the water just so they know I'm open... but inside it hurts like hell, like I chopped off a finger. On the surface, I keep everything casual; inside, everything is very extreme and the two forces have to be intense in order to balance each other.

    I feel very much like I've always had two extreme forces warring with each other inside, keeping each other in balance.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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