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  1. #11
    :) INFtha14's Avatar
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    This is great, I've been really curious about this for
    awhile.

    So far I've got.

    In-Control: Melancholy-Phlegmatic
    This one fits cause i agree with the "expressing little or no control of over others and will tolerate very little control imposed from others." In the sense that I don't like to impose control onto others and I don't like control imposed on me. I have this "each their own" way about myself. I don't try to lecture anyone, i'll throw out some cautions but in the end it's up the person themselves with what they want to do.

    Affection: Phlegmatic
    For this for the most part generally fit well.
    The emotionally well rounded part resonates
    possibly. I can tolerate it almost to the point where i'm oblivious
    to affection. Like your walking with someone but I don't even try to hold there hand *WTH if wrong with me heh*.

    Can relate to the roll with the punches thing, when I was back in elementary/Middle school and there were bullies that would pick on you I tried to just ignore cause I know they wanted a reaction and I wasn't going to give them any power over me.
    Also I can definitely see emotionally guarded.

    In-Inclusion: Melancholy-Phlegmatic.

    This one resonated cause i don't exactly hate socializing but I know i'm an introvert so I usually take it easy. I won't walk up and say hi unless I know the people or they are connected to people i know.
    I'm bubbly but I'm a huge introvert heh. Guard my alone
    time alot, I need it or I get drained.

    Definitely can't stand a fast pace it creates alot of stress for me.
    It's overwhelming i'm more of a prodder that slowly evaluates and is never hasty. I don't think that's a good thing for this world cause they expect you to be this fast acting, go get em type.

    I actually think i have a good understanding of people, at least I try too so that's the only thing that stands out. Roll with the punches makes sense. It's like whatever way the wind blows me I can take it. The end result and pitfalls of a project part fits very well too.

    I definitely have the low energy reserve thing going on but I can also be surpringly bubbly and happy with people but I do it in a low key and quiet way for the most part **. Can't hold the happy bubbly look for long until I need to either mentally reflect or be alone for abit.

    Moved from IC to here cause it seems to fit better here.
    I'm not going to over invest myself where I intangle people problems and make them mine that's too exhausting. My mother is the type to do that which is admirable cause it's all from how much she cares but It just looks exhausting *XD*.

    I care but I do guard my energy reserves as I can only take it so far. I let go of the outcome for the most part in dealing with people problems, it's in there hands. I care but I am careful not to over invest is all.

    I honestly looked at the Supine In Affection but I don't seem to "over" invest myself. I relate to the emotional/crying easily, experience deep affection but find it hard to initiate.

    I could see it but phlegmatic seems to make alittle more sense cause of my "each their own" attitude. I like people to come to me if they are aware I can only do so much cause it begins and ends with themselves.

    I'm supportive but I'm not a pushover either I know i'm not responsible for others. My mother would most likely be supine in affection.

    Where we have had our moments of frustration seem to stem when a Supine in affection and a phlegmatic in affection cross paths. I just learned this so I may be wrong heh.

    Do I seem supine in affection or Phlegmatic *i'm voting for Phlegmatic but I'm interested in your input *

    I just thought i'd show why I picked these just to see if I got it or not? I understand if you were just testing ideas I just am really curious if I'm applying this right. How does this sound to you Eric B? Can you help me?
    Thank you, no pressure .
    What is Feeling?
    Feeling is primarily a process.....that imparts to the content a definite value in the sense of acceptance or rejection. In the same way that thinking organizes the contents of consciousness under concepts, feeling arranges them according to their value. Feeling, like thinking, is a rational function, since values in general are assigned according to the laws of reason...
    (Carl Jung, Psychological Types, Chapter XI - Definitions)

  2. #12
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    This is interesting, Eric, but don't you think it's a bit much to expect us to read through 51 profiles? Or is there a more efficient way for us to explore this and contribute to the discussion?
    True. Sorry about that. (Though it probably isn't more difficult that taking a long test, for those who do have the time).

    So what you can do instead is start with the five primary temperaments in each area: Melancholy, Supine, Phlegmatic, Choleric and Sanguine. If one seems to fit better than the others, but not quite, then, you can try its two Phlegmatic blends (if it's one of the other four).

    The way this works is by expressive and responsive behavior. If Sanguine or Choleric seem a bit too expressive for you (i.e. extroverted, particularly in Inclusion, in Control, I believe it would be pragmatic), then you could try Phlegmatic Sanguine or Phlegmatic Choleric, which are a bit less expressive (moderate). If Melancholy or Supine are too reserved, then you can try Phlegmatic Melancholy or Phlegmatic Supine.
    If expressiveness is not the problem, then maybe it's responsiveness (people-task focus, or how much interaction you want from others). If Sanguine or Supine are too "needy" or dependent on people, then Sanguine Phlegmatic and Supine Phlegmatic will be less so; a bit more independent. If Melancholy or Choleric are too critical or rejecting of people, then Melancholy Phlegmatic or Choleric Phlegmatic will be less so.

    You can also map it on the diagram. Left is reserved, and right is expressive. Down is less responsive and up is more responsive. If Phlegmatic itself is the best sounding one, but you suspect more or less expressiveness or responsiveness, then you can look at the bordering Phlegmatic blend in that direction.

    The Compulsives are simply the more extreme versions of the four corner temperaments. You don't have to look at those, unless you think you're more driven in your temperament need than the regular temperament.

    And of course, if you already have an idea of your Galen temperament, especially from the Interaction Styles or Keirsey temperaments, then you can start with that as well.

    Also, from going through this with Greed, I did find one mistake in one of the reports: Temperament:Phlegmatic Sanguine in Affection
    The second list of three traits (beginning with "1. Shows very little love and affection...") was apparently copied from Supine. The first list is the correct one, "Shows a moderate amount of love and affection...".
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  3. #13
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    You need to work on making this stuff more digestible
    Hello

  4. #14
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duchessoftheshadows View Post
    This is great, I've been really curious about this for
    awhile.

    So far I've got.

    In-Control: Melancholy-Phlegmatic
    This one fits cause i agree with the "expressing little or no control of over others and will tolerate very little control imposed from others." In the sense that I don't like to impose control onto others and I don't like control imposed on me. I have this "each their own" way about myself. I don't try to lecture anyone, i'll throw out some cautions but in the end it's up the person themselves with what they want to do.

    Affection: Phlegmatic
    For this for the most part generally fit well.
    The emotionally well rounded part resonates
    possibly. I can tolerate it almost to the point where i'm oblivious
    to affection. Like your walking with someone but I don't even try to hold there hand *WTH if wrong with me heh*.

    Can relate to the roll with the punches thing, when I was back in elementary/Middle school and there were bullies that would pick on you I tried to just ignore cause I know they wanted a reaction and I wasn't going to give them any power over me.
    Also I can definitely see emotionally guarded.

    In-Inclusion: Melancholy-Phlegmatic.

    This one resonated cause i don't exactly hate socializing but I know i'm an introvert so I usually take it easy. I won't walk up and say hi unless I know the people or they are connected to people i know.
    I'm bubbly but I'm a huge introvert heh. Guard my alone
    time alot, I need it or I get drained.

    Definitely can't stand a fast pace it creates alot of stress for me.
    It's overwhelming i'm more of a prodder that slowly evaluates and is never hasty. I don't think that's a good thing for this world cause they expect you to be this fast acting, go get em type.

    I actually think i have a good understanding of people, at least I try too so that's the only thing that stands out. Roll with the punches makes sense. It's like whatever way the wind blows me I can take it. The end result and pitfalls of a project part fits very well too.

    I definitely have the low energy reserve thing going on but I can also be surpringly bubbly and happy with people but I do it in a low key and quiet way for the most part **. Can't hold the happy bubbly look for long until I need to either mentally reflect or be alone for abit.
    Melancholy Phlegmatic in Inclusion and Control. (or, Cautious Association/Checker)
    That would make sense for having INfP with the F apparently in question. Phlegmatic in Inclusion and Control I believe would fall into INFP, but the Melancholy leans towards T. (Melancholy in Inclusion and Control would most likely be ISTJ).
    So you're squarely introverted (and cooperative), but sort of inbetween on people/task or directive/informative. Can take them or leave them, and that sounds like what you described. Between a Behind the Scenes and Chart the Course in Interaction Style, and I bet you can identify with SJ somewhat as well (strong Si?)

    Would you also happen to be E4? That type sounded very Melancholy Phlegmatic to me as well (as well as often being INFP).

    Moved from IC to here cause it seems to fit better here.
    Well, the order is not about strength, so Inclusion is put first because that's the most obvious to others part of personality; the first thing you see. Affection is actually the deepest part of the personality, and the most important, according to Ryan.
    I'm not going to over invest myself where I intangle people problems and make them mine that's too exhausting. My mother is the type to do that which is admirable cause it's all from how much she cares but It just looks exhausting *XD*.

    I care but I do guard my energy reserves as I can only take it so far. I let go of the outcome for the most part in dealing with people problems, it's in there hands. I care but I am careful not to over invest is all.

    I honestly looked at the Supine In Affection but I don't seem to "over" invest myself. I relate to the emotional/crying easily, experience deep affection but find it hard to initiate.
    Another limitation of the reports, is that they don't take into consideration the tempering effect of other temperaments in the other areas. I'm Supine Compulsive in Affection, but I don't do the crying and such (and don't even feel I want affection so much), because of the Choleric in Control. So that's something else to keep in mind. Just like with type and cognitive functions, specific behavioral descriptions like "crying easily" are guides and not hard definitions.

    I could see it but phlegmatic seems to make alittle more sense cause of my "each their own" attitude. I like people to come to me if they are aware I can only do so much cause it begins and ends with themselves.

    I'm supportive but I'm not a pushover either I know i'm not responsible for others. My mother would most likely be supine in affection.

    Where we have had our moments of frustration seem to stem when a Supine in affection and a phlegmatic in affection cross paths. I just learned this so I may be wrong heh.
    I take it the Supine craves affection, but doesn't express it, and builds up resentment. When this becomes evident, then you respond with standoffish indifference and/or sarcastic humor. Is that accurate?
    Do I seem supine in affection or Phlegmatic *i'm voting for Phlegmatic but I'm interested in your input *
    I really don't know. The area of Affection is about deep personal relationships, so I won't experience that part of your personality, because I only know you from an internet forum. So I can readily gather that the Inclusion fits, and to a lesser extent, the Control, but in Affection, I can only go by what you say, and it does seem to pretty much match as far as I can see.
    If you find it hard to initiate, then that might be a lower expressed Affection, and you can look at Supine Phlegmatic. Expressed behavior is what we say we want, and wanted behavior (responsiveness) is what we really want. So if you express as a Supine (hard to initiate) and respond as a Phlegmatic (which definitely sounds accurate), that would suggest Supine Phlegmatic.

    I just thought i'd show why I picked these just to see if I got it or not? I understand if you were just testing ideas I just am really curious if I'm applying this right. How does this sound to you Eric B? Can you help me?
    Thank you, no pressure .
    So far, it does sound pretty accurate to what you describe, and does seem to pretty much follow type. I'm testing ideas, and it is great to help people who are interested. I believe this system does pretty much parallel type, and with the added area of deep personal relations and moderation in temperament scores (which we see can explain ambiguity/uncertainty in preference). I believe it is actually more simple than MBTI, because the framework of expressed vs wanted behavior, and the same temperament names in each area. What MBTI has that we don't is the cognitive functions and letter codes, so it's good to find how they fit and be able to access both frameworks.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  5. #15
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    You need to work on making this stuff more digestible
    I guess I need help with that. (The reports aren't mine, BTW, so I can't control making those more digestible).
    I find the system much easier to learn/understand than the MBTI's intertwined letters and functions, and there is evidence that the two systems are charting pretty much the same things, just from different angles. But MBTI is what became more popular (If I read correctly FIRO, which this is based on, actually was once more popular, but MBTI surpassed it in the 70's). And I have had a lot of problems getting people to understand this one. I seem to be torn between whether adding too little information might not be enough for people to get the sense of it (since the system is so foreign, basically), or just adding too much information hoping whatever people need to understand it can just be sorted out of it. Sorry.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  6. #16
    Senior Member sticker's Avatar
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    Well, I can't understand most of what these are, but I picked up these which were the most accurate for me and hoping to see what it brings up.

    Inclusion: Phlegmatic Melancholy
    Control: Supine Phlegmatic [Had quite a few problems deciding between Melancholy, Phlegmatic and Supine... o_O It mainly depends on how well I think I know about the project at hand and how confident I am in leading the group coupled with if there's already a good leader in the group. As long as they are doing their part well and the leader is doing his/her job, I leave them be. But if they aren't, I'll end up nagging at them to start doing work.]
    Affection: Melancholy

    Is that somewhat of a tie between Melancholy and Phlegmatic?
    Everyone is unique. ...Just like everyone else.
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  7. #17
    :) INFtha14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Melancholy Phlegmatic in Inclusion and Control. (or, Cautious Association/Checker)
    That would make sense for having INfP with the F apparently in question. Phlegmatic in Inclusion and Control I believe would fall into INFP, but the Melancholy leans towards T. (Melancholy in Inclusion and Control would most likely be ISTJ).
    So you're squarely introverted (and cooperative), but sort of inbetween on people/task or directive/informative. Can take them or leave them, and that sounds like what you described. Between a Behind the Scenes and Chart the Course in Interaction Style, and I bet you can identify with SJ somewhat as well (strong Si?)

    Would you also happen to be E4? That type sounded very Melancholy Phlegmatic to me as well (as well as often being INFP).

    Well, the order is not about strength, so Inclusion is put first because that's the most obvious to others part of personality; the first thing you see. Affection is actually the deepest part of the personality, and the most important, according to Ryan.

    Another limitation of the reports, is that they don't take into consideration the tempering effect of other temperaments in the other areas. I'm Supine Compulsive in Affection, but I don't do the crying and such (and don't even feel I want affection so much), because of the Choleric in Control. So that's something else to keep in mind. Just like with type and cognitive functions, specific behavioral descriptions like "crying easily" are guides and not hard definitions.

    I take it the Supine craves affection, but doesn't express it, and builds up resentment. When this becomes evident, then you respond with standoffish indifference and/or sarcastic humor. Is that accurate?

    I really don't know. The area of Affection is about deep personal relationships, so I won't experience that part of your personality, because I only know you from an internet forum. So I can readily gather that the Inclusion fits, and to a lesser extent, the Control, but in Affection, I can only go by what you say, and it does seem to pretty much match as far as I can see.

    If you find it hard to initiate, then that might be a lower expressed Affection, and you can look at Supine Phlegmatic. Expressed behavior is what we say we want, and wanted behavior (responsiveness) is what we really want. So if you express as a Supine (hard to initiate) and respond as a Phlegmatic (which definitely sounds accurate), that would suggest Supine Phlegmatic.

    So far, it does sound pretty accurate to what you describe, and does seem to pretty much follow type. I'm testing ideas, and it is great to help people who are interested. I believe this system does pretty much parallel type, and with the added area of deep personal relations and moderation in temperament scores (which we see can explain ambiguity/uncertainty in preference). I believe it is actually more simple than MBTI, because the framework of expressed vs wanted behavior, and the same temperament names in each area. What MBTI has that we don't is the cognitive functions and letter codes, so it's good to find how they fit and be able to access both frameworks.
    Im not sure if Im melancholy exactly just with the descriptions melancholy phlegmatic fits better then the others in comparison. My F is certain its just balanced though at times I do wonder but I put that to being indecisive.
    Yeah SJ I can relate, I think my Si is pretty strong. I typed myself and from people on the Enneagram institute as a E6, could I be? Cause I see a lot of E4traits but not as much as E6 so I assumed I have a four in my tri-fix.

    I know for the most part that I'm behind the scenes interaction style according to berens I.S, unless I'm confusing the receptivity of Phlegmatic in Affection for being BtS. I aways put it being behind the scenes to not really be bothered where we begin and end in activities *task focus*. I have an outcome focus so the result will always be the same no matter what we do first or last.

    Pretty much, I always miss the signals *wants to know shes valued but shes very indirect in my eyes of course* that Im suppose to be able to recognize when the Supine hasnt really been very clear. Then I just get so confused I dont even know how to respond other then to ask if it means she wants help or not?

    Cause Ill ask sometimes and Ill get a no its okay I got it thus leaving me in confusion. But other times when I didnt ask I used to get abit of hostility in response from her which I would find out it was cause I didnt ask if she wanted help.

    Thats my problem if I see someone doing just fine I let them be, she wants to know I care about her enough to ask if she needs help even if she doesnt really need it *this confuses me*. Things have improved between us so thats great we meet half way now. I dont really get indifferent, maybe it comes off that way but Im just confused or feeling like she was getting upset with me for nothing.

    So say if a person who Expresses Supine
    but responds as a Phlegmatic how would that go?
    Im curious by what you mean by Responsiveness is what we really want?
    It sounds like it fits me so far for supine phlegmatic.

    Would this explain why I feel I am more phlegmatic and melancholy is harder to see? Because my area of affection is Expressed Supine-Responsive phlegmatic which Responsive is what we really want?

    That makes a lot of sense, less room for confusion probably too with expressed vs. wanted behavior coupled with MBTI really creates precision and clarity which is always awesome.
    So Mel-phlegmatic in control. *definitely fits*.
    *E*Supine *R* phlegmatic in Affection.
    Phlegmatic-Sang? in inclusion.

    *Take it or leave is definitely more my style* Melancholy seems like it's more exclusive I don't like exclude people out that's the only problem with it Mel for Inclusion. I just don't sway either way. Could I be Phleg-Sang for Inclusion? I seem take it or leave em but at times there's a subtle gregariousness.
    How does expressed and responsive work for In control and inclusion?
    Do those get used for those two or just for Affection?

    Thank you Eric .
    What is Feeling?
    Feeling is primarily a process.....that imparts to the content a definite value in the sense of acceptance or rejection. In the same way that thinking organizes the contents of consciousness under concepts, feeling arranges them according to their value. Feeling, like thinking, is a rational function, since values in general are assigned according to the laws of reason...
    (Carl Jung, Psychological Types, Chapter XI - Definitions)

  8. #18
    Senior Member aeon's Avatar
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    my best self-analysis:

    Inclusion: Phlegmatic
    Control: Melancholy-Phlegmatic
    Affection: Sanguine-Phlegmatic


    cheers,
    Ian

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sticker View Post
    Well, I can't understand most of what these are, but I picked up these which were the most accurate for me and hoping to see what it brings up.

    Inclusion: Phlegmatic Melancholy
    Control: Supine Phlegmatic [Had quite a few problems deciding between Melancholy, Phlegmatic and Supine... o_O It mainly depends on how well I think I know about the project at hand and how confident I am in leading the group coupled with if there's already a good leader in the group. As long as they are doing their part well and the leader is doing his/her job, I leave them be. But if they aren't, I'll end up nagging at them to start doing work.]
    Affection: Melancholy

    Is that somewhat of a tie between Melancholy and Phlegmatic?
    In Inclusion, this would mean you are a bit more expressive than other Melancholies. Basically, between E and I, though leaning toward I. My brother has this Inclusion, and he appears cool and observant of other people, but responds with cynicism and has a very sarcastic wit.

    Control, I would say if you are SJ, that would be Melancholy (with the Supines being more NF), but I could see where Supine would seem SJ as well. Supine Phlegmatic is on the border with Melancholy, so that would not be far off either, and that seems accurate from what you described. It's a low expressed Control (not quick to lead, and the whole confidence issue), and wanting others to do their part (moderate wanted).

    I'm not sure what you mean by "tie between Melancholy and Phlegmatic". If you mean a sort of overall average temperament? This system doesn't really do that, though the temperaments do temper each other in the overall mix. So yes, overall, you would be very Melancholy and very Phlegmatic.
    Last edited by Eric B; 02-09-2010 at 09:22 PM.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  10. #20
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    Control: Supine - Phlegmatic
    Affection: Supine

    The inclusion is hard for me to decide. It is either Supine or Supine - Phlegmatic

    General description of people who are Supine in Inclusion:

    1. Is an extrovert although he/she appears to be an introvert
    2. Approaches very few people for association and socialization, but wants to be approached by others for association and socialization
    3. Has indirect behavior -- looks like someone who doesn't want to socialize, when in fact he/she wants very much to socialize and is waiting for someone to initiate
    4. Is slow-paced -- works at a steady, slow pace and tends to lose momentum as the day progresses, requires a change of environment in order to "recharge" his/her energy
    5. Responds to both the threat of punishment and the promise of reward -- will change his/her actions in order to gain recognition and approval or to avoid negative consequences
    6. Highly responsive to emotional rewards such as recognition and acceptance -- also highly responsive to emotional punishments such as guilt, rejection and loss of recognition
    7. Suffers a great deal of anxiety if forced to be away from people often or for long periods of time

    Supine in Inclusion:
    Potential strengths which should be encouraged, used and developed:

    1. Is relationship-oriented -- relates well to people and can perform tasks very well as a means of establishing and maintaining relationships
    2. High intellectual capacities -- a thinker

    Supine in Inclusion:
    Potential weaknesses which should be considered and dealt with:

    1. Appears to be cold and withdrawn when in reality he/she is not -- it is simply a defense against the fear of rejection
    2. Becomes angry if not recognized for services performed
    3. Has strong fear of rejection -- when he/she feels rejected, insulted or offended, his/her anger is internalized, causing it to remain unresolved. This anger is referred to as "hurt feelings."
    4. Has low self esteem and constantly searches the environment for messages to reaffirm that he/she is not a valuable person
    5. May be moody -- mood swings respond to the environment: a change of environment will change his/her mood
    General description of people who are Supine Phlegmatic in Inclusion:

    1. Introvert/extrovert -- expresses (behaves like) an introvert, but will respond like an extrovert when others initiate social interaction
    2. Relates well to tasks, systems and ideas, and also relates well to people and is able to socialize when the need arises
    3. Slow-paced -- works at a steady, slow pace and tends to lose momentum as the day progresses
    4. Places the burden of proof on others -- others must prove they will accept him/her before he/she will respond
    5. Low energy reserve -- tires very easily

    Supine Phlegmatic in Inclusion:
    Potential strengths which should be encouraged, used and developed:

    1. Self-motivated
    2. Best suited to tasks that require precision and accuracy
    3. Rolls with the punches -- can take rejection and approval equally well (if you like him/her it's okay, and if you don't, it's also okay)
    4. Dry sense of humor which can be very witty

    Supine Phlegmatic in Inclusion:
    Potential weaknesses which should be noted and dealt with:

    1. Will only make changes and move from the present state when he/she makes the intellectual decision to do so and not before
    2. Dry sense of humor which can be biting and sarcastic
    3. Strong-minded and very resistant to change
    I bolded the parts that fit me. I can't decide. I find this talk about "dry humor" something that definitely doesn't fit me. Supine would seem like a better choice, but I am quite sure that I really am an introvert. I just like people, that's all...

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