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  1. #161
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    More and more signs point to NTP... O_o

    What do you mean by the function pairs are "now" called that? Never heard that anywhere else except from you. I think it's great terminology. I get the impression that Ti is aligning systems/theories to each other, mapping things to one another, interlinking things. While Fe is aligning with other people. I think that's right.

    Thanks again.
    Those are new terms from Berens as apart of her new "Intentional Styles" model. The Intentional Styles themselves are the groups sharing all four primary functions (so that both SFJ and NTP are the same style, called "Enhancing"; it's basically similar to the quadras), and some presentations sheets also named the individual function tandems as well.
    So that's another lens to look at type through, since you're reconsidering. Here's an article on it, back when it was still called "Cognitive Styles": Cognitive Style, Respect, and Forgiveness (though it only mentions the Styles, not the tandems). Here's one on the "tandem principle": http://lindaberens.com/wp-content/up...leParts1-2.pdf
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  2. #162
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Subscribing, to remind myself to revisit this topic. IIRC the last time I looked into it, I didn't relate to the modes of inclusion/control/affection that I was "supposed" to relate to. Maybe I've grown into those boxes, in the past few years.
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    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
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    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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  3. #163
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I thought you always pretty much matched. You had "Choleric Melancholy" (or at times, "Melancholy Choleric") in you signature for a long time. (an't find any older posts here by you, right now).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  4. #164
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    You sound like someone very “Choleric” on the surface (“In Charge” Interaction Style), but with a higher wanted Control (which would fit NF's “motive focus”). That's why I suggested Phlegmatic in Control.
    Maybe you could look at Supine in Control (the other one I associate with NF. And there's Phlegmatic Supine and Supine Phlegmatic as well).
    You'll see in those an emphasis on “dependency” you might not identify but so much with, but keep in mind, the different temperament areas modify each other, and Choleric is the diametric opposite of Supine, and on the surface, that will lead to a greater appearance of less dependency and passivity.

    So it's on the surface of social dealings with people where you display those Choleric traits, but in actual leadership and responsibilities, you're not as “goal” oriented, but have a measue of people-orientation. That would match what I've read about ENFJ's.

    Since people have basically tacked Enneagram on as a virtual fifth letter of type (modifying the overall behavior), I often wonder if that might have something to do with the remaining area of Affection. Since you say 1w2, then maybe Melancholy or Phlegmatic Melancholy? You would be “inbetween” in expressing a need for closeness and affection, and having a low want of it. Perhaps explaining why you don't identify with the area so much.

    Many people wonder how Asperger's would work with preferred Fe. Must be difficult.
    The statement about me being choleric on the surface is accurate. I'd argue it is the largest part of me though, even though it is surface. That only turns down when I have gotten to know someone well, and they have proven themselves to be good, competent, trustworthy, and a good match (in whatever regard). In leadership roles though, the first thing anyone would say about me would be "he runs a tight ship". I soften and become more personal on individual basis's when people have shown reason to be so. Until then I am fairly distant/detatched, and individuals who try to get close of be person run the chance of meeting a very robotic/surface presence. I describe myself as highly goal oriented, but I do my best not to forget the people element, but only for "my people". If someone is bad for the mix, I basically disregard them all together. I do not fit the stereotype of the "fluffy bunny ENFJ" who wants absolutely harmony for everyone. I want harmony for everyone that correctly fits in the group only. Outside of that, it's all about objective good/bad/right/wrong.

    The thing is, I go through periods where I want a lot of affection, then I want none at all. That can change over the course of hours. I also go through phases where I want express affection for someone and am totally comfortable with it, and then periods where I don't want to even slightly. I can't predict or reason why this changes so quickly, and is part of my confusion. Generally speaking though, I do believe that I express affection/like for individuals more than I want to receive it, if we boil it down to interaction, and the "ways" in which I express like or fondness for someone. My feelings are on the surface, and when I am happy/excited it's very obvious. I emote and express a TON, and never expect all of that in return with that level of energy. Getting that can feel like too much. Again, that's all sans romance, which is a whole nother beast.

    I do not relate to supine at all though. I am not dependent in the slightest. I love people, and I do best when I have lots of people around me. The dependency only goes insofar as needing others to get my social fix and have fun. That's it.

    Yeah, Asperger's + Fe is odd. Difficult to explain how it works, but it definitely works. I'm very social and friendly, but I have this persistent air of detatchment and diffuse focus. In a group there is more of a sense with interacting with the group as a whole, and much less towards individuals.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
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    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  5. #165
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    All of that sounds like Choleric in Inclusion, which has a "Exclusive Club" mentality, of (probably said it before) "Don't call me, I'll call you".
    You also sound like Choleric in Affection as well. (Giving more than you want to receive. Though maybe it's the negative descriptions or "weaknesses" you're having trouble with?)

    Supine in Control can "run a tight ship", but usually if set by someone else. Though this may not be immediately seen, like if it's a boss or other authority. They will just look controlling themselves, perhaps like a Choleric. (And the same with an SJ, really).
    What often gets called "dependency" is really a fear of being alone. Which matches some descriptions of the NF (particularly a guy named Riemann, and you can even see some of this in Keirsey). They actually don't wish to be controlled and dominated; they just want oters to take responsibility. And once those others do, then they will "run a tight ship" based on that.
    This book: http://jacksonsnyder.com/mgi/studies/GCY.pdf which I review here: https://erictb.wordpress.com/2014/02...od-created-you really gives a good description of the Supine in Control, that goes more in depth than those reports. (And this again would affect being Choleric in the other areas).

    And you said, "The dependency only goes insofar as needing others to get my social fix and have fun". So the Inclusion (Choleric) approaches others to get that social fix, and filters according ot the goal, and the Control (which is the next deepest level of personality in this system) is what "needs" the people for that, and opens up when the people have proven themselves.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  6. #166
    All Natural! All Good!
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    @Eric B , I'm definitely Sanguine in Inclusion. Get Things Going in Berens's whatever types...Interaction Styles(?). Which is correct for ESFP.

    But then, after I get everybody in "Everyone in! Everyone in! Everyone welcome!" in a typical Sanguine way, I start to get controlling: "You! Get out! You! Out! You can stay in. You! Out! You can stay in too." Etc. I'll start telling people to GET OUT!! While other people are still welcome. What is that - is that Control or Affection?
    Strychnine is all-natural,
    So strychnine is all good.
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  7. #167
    Senior Member Smilephantomhive's Avatar
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    Finally got around to reading these

    Inclusion: Melancholy
    Control: Melancholy-Phlegmatic
    Affection: Melancholy
    "Avoid getting too preoccupied thinking about what you’re going to do, to actually do it."
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  8. #168
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    @Eric B , I'm definitely Sanguine in Inclusion. Get Things Going in Berens's whatever types...Interaction Styles(?). Which is correct for ESFP.

    But then, after I get everybody in "Everyone in! Everyone in! Everyone welcome!" in a typical Sanguine way, I start to get controlling: "You! Get out! You! Out! You can stay in. You! Out! You can stay in too." Etc. I'll start telling people to GET OUT!! While other people are still welcome. What is that - is that Control or Affection?
    Might be Control. Could even be apart of Inclusion, depending on why you're telling them to get out. Sanguines have hot tempers, but are generally moment to moment, and don't usually stay rejecting of people.
    So why do you tell some people to get out?
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  9. #169
    Wallflower power! Punderstorm's Avatar
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    PhelMel Inclusion
    PhelChor Control
    MelPhel Affection
    @Eric B, what does this say about me?
    IxxP-Conscientious-Slytherin-Leisurely-Idiosyncratic-9w1-4w3-7w6-sp/so-LII-Ne


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  10. #170
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    PhegmaticMelancholy and PhlegmaticCholeric are both between Melancholy and Choleric, and are lower energy versions of the main temperaments. A Choleric's emotional energy pushes him outward, toward expressiveness, while a Melancholy's energy pushes him inward, toward reservation. So these variants are driven neither way (which is why they're called "Phlegmatic"), and thus end up more expressive than a regular Melancholy, and more reserved than a regular Choleric

    In Inclusion, this is basically an "ambivert". But since you have to be either E or I in type, and you already have the I there, then that would fit.
    In Control, Melancholy is SJ and Choleric is NT. You have the N and P there, so SJ is less likely on both counts. So NT is more likely. Though if you're PhlegmaticMelancholy in Inclusion, for an N, that would be iNJ. (For an S, it's iST). Though since this is part Phlegmatic as well, then I could see it possibly being the other Interaction Style, INP.
    You're not sure about T/F, and Phlegmatic [in Control] might be NF, but since it's PhlegmaticCholeric, it would point more to NT.

    So it looks like INTP. (And NTP's often have T/F uncertainty largely in part due to what amounts to the higher wanted Inclusion —Berens calls it "Informing communication", which is softer than the "Directing communications" held by all the other T's. They also identify with Melancholy a lot, I believe, because of the blend of certain temperament traits, when not taking the official APS test which sorts it all out). Otherwise, (especially if you're not completely sure about the P also) it could be INTJ.

    In my correlation, Affection doesn't really match type, but it could be like an extension of Interaction Style, or even modify it. MelancholyPhlegmatic is a bit more "responsive" than the regular Melancholy (or PhlegmaticMelancholy), so overall, your Affection will seem to match Inclusion, but you'll be a little more reserved in deeper relationships, and want more affection and closeness than you do in regular socialization. Perhaps this higher responsiveness in that area could also be what pushes your Interaction Style toward INP.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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