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  1. #141

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    Inclusion: Choleric Phlegmatic
    Control: Phlegmatic Melancholy
    Affection: Supine Phlegmatic

  2. #142
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    Since you don't seem to know a type, then from this, how about ESTJ? (Choleric in Inclusion: EST + Melancholy in Control: SJ).
    Since all of them are "Phlegmatic" variants, then you're very moderate, and close to other temperaments.

    So you could also look at:
    Choleric Phlegmatic in Inclusion = close to Sanguine: ESF or ENP
    Phlegmatic Melancholy in Control = close to Choleric: NT
    Phlegmatic by itself: ISF/INP, NF.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  3. #143
    Senior Member Ghost's Avatar
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    Inclusion: PM Phlegmatic Melancholy
    Control: SP Supine Phlegmatic (perhaps MP Melancholy Phlegmatic or PM Phlegmatic Melancholy)
    Affection: MP Melancholy Phlegmatic

    I think so, anyway.

  4. #144
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    @Eric B - How do the expressed vs. wanted conditions factor into the MBTI correlations? I have tried skimming through your website to determine this, but I have been unsuccessful in doing so.

    I managed to find this table, but I am unsure which temperaments correlate to which values of the 16 type model/FFM.



    For example, I know that the melancholic and supine eI correlate to introversion (and choleric and sanguine eI correlate to extraversion)...but I am a bit lost on the rest (and not entirely sure how phlegmatic fits in the first...though it seems to be introverted).
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  5. #145
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    I didn't read all of them, but I skimmed them all to see if they were close, then read the ones that were close. Granted, I pretty well know my temperment so I knew what it would be from the get go:

    Inclusion = C Choleric (God damn. This is spot. Freaking. On. In every single way)
    Control = M Melancholy (I'm somewhere between C and M with this one, neither is completely correct, but this is closer).
    Affection = ...no idea (none of these fit well. This could be due the fact that I have never been in a romantic relationship before, and the entirety of deep affection just confuses me and I don't know how I act or what I need).
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  6. #146
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by /DG/ View Post
    @Eric B - How do the expressed vs. wanted conditions factor into the MBTI correlations? I have tried skimming through your website to determine this, but I have been unsuccessful in doing so.

    I managed to find this table, but I am unsure which temperaments correlate to which values of the 16 type model/FFM.



    For example, I know that the melancholic and supine eI correlate to introversion (and choleric and sanguine eI correlate to extraversion)...but I am a bit lost on the rest (and not entirely sure how phlegmatic fits in the first...though it seems to be introverted).
    OK, "Informing/Directing" are Interaction Styles terms (originally derived from Keirsey), and "informing" corresponds to high wI, and is represented by SF and NP. "Directing" is a low wI, and corresponds to ST and NJ. (Think of the "mirro temperaments", or the flipside of the Keirseyan groups. They figure in Interaction styles, and were what Keirsey discovered in his eight "intelligence variants" in Portraits of Temperament).

    I'm sure you know what "cooperative/pragmatic" are "cooperative"=SJ and NF=low eC; "pragmatic"=SP adnd NT=high eC; and "Structure/motive" is a dimension Berens came up with, shared by the temperaments that had nothing else in common in Keirsey's matrix: structure=SJ, NT=low wC; motive=SP, NF=low wC.

    I don't know which website you looked through (I have several pages on different specific topics), but this is the one specifially on the correlation: ERICA vs EISeNFelT
    This shorter primer on type also goes into it: MBTI Type: “Super Short” version
    tere's also this blog entry: https://erictb.wordpress.com/2014/07...rament-mapping
    My avatar shows the correlation directly with the two systems overlaid graphically.

    Here (from that page) is how the Keirsey/Berens factors translate into e/w I and C:

    Extraverts will tend to be quicker to approach others on a social level (i.e. high expressed Inclusion);
    introverts will be slower (low eI).


    The speed of initiation in leadership and responsibilities will tend to be a bit quicker (high eC) when based on whether something "works" (Pragmatic)
    or slower (low eC) when based on whether it is "right" (Cooperative).


    People who want less social interaction (low wI) will have stricter criteria [<APS] for accepting people, will define the relationship [<Keirsey], and thus tend to communicate to them in a directive fashion.

    People who want more social interaction (high wI) will have lighter criteria, and be more readily accepting of people; allowing them to define the relationship, and soften their communication into "informing".


    People who want less control (low wC) by other people will tend to have the dictates of a structure (such as an organization or their own plans) to set the criteria that must be met for them to accept that control.

    People who allow more influence by others in responsibilities (high wC) will be more likely to take into account others' motives "in order to work with them" (Berens).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  7. #147
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I didn't read all of them, but I skimmed them all to see if they were close, then read the ones that were close. Granted, I pretty well know my temperment so I knew what it would be from the get go:

    Inclusion = C Choleric (God damn. This is spot. Freaking. On. In every single way)
    Control = M Melancholy (I'm somewhere between C and M with this one, neither is completely correct, but this is closer).
    Affection = ...no idea (none of these fit well. This could be due the fact that I have never been in a romantic relationship before, and the entirety of deep affection just confuses me and I don't know how I act or what I need).
    If you're between C and M, that would be PC or PM:
    Temperament Phlegmatic Choleric In Control
    Temperament: Phlegmatic Melancholy In Control

    The "Phlegmatic" in this case indicates that expressed Control is moderate, where M is low, and C is high.

    As an NF, I would expect your Control to be at least in the Phlegmatic range (rather than pure C or M, which would be, respectively, an NT or SJ), so you should check those out too, and maye also the pure Phlegmatic, if you didn't really read it already.
    I would expect a C/M to be an ESTJ, and a C/PM or C/PC to be either that or an ENTJ, and I notice you have both high Fe and Te (they are "left brain alternatives", and so can both come out "strong"), but as function preference is not really about relative "strength" (as measured by an imperfect test that likely doesn't take into consideration why or in what contexts a given function comes out so "strong") I wonder if it's possible for Te to be the dominant.

    Affection is not just about "romantic" relationships, but just "deep relationships" (including any close family) in general, and how open or closed one is in them (and includes how much physical affection one likes to give or receive).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  8. #148
    All Natural! All Good!
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    I am Informative, People-Oriented, and Initiating = Get Things Going (Keirsey Coworker)
    I don't have a Directive bone in my body! If there is an In Charge person present, I might default to Behind the Scenes. But other than that I am Get Things Going through and through.

    Pragmatic (as opposed to Cooperative)

    idk Structure/Motive

    Inclusion: Sanguine Phlegmatic
    Control: Phlegmatic
    Affection: Choleric Phlegmatic

    What type is this? ESFP? @Eric B

    Thanks.


    Driving needs are between these from @Eric B 's website:

    Sanguines are motivated by the need for socialization or attention, and this drives them to like being around people, and be very outgoing and usually bright and friendly. They are also regenerated by socialization.

    Cholerics are motivated by goals, which drives them to approach and use people for accomplishments, often being bright and charming, but not otherwise associate with them. They are regenerated by meeting their goals.

    Probably more Choleric and less Sanguine. I want to say almost superficially Sanguine and really Choleric, although I am genuinely Sanguine (it's not a pretense; just doesn't feel as essential to me a Choleric.)
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    So eat it, you should.
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  9. #149
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    If you're between C and M, that would be PC or PM:
    Temperament Phlegmatic Choleric In Control
    Temperament: Phlegmatic Melancholy In Control

    The "Phlegmatic" in this case indicates that expressed Control is moderate, where M is low, and C is high.
    PC fits, PM not really. The big thing is while I need praise, recognition, it's for the sole purpose of getting objective proof that I am doing well and am competent and am valued for what I bring to the frey. In the absence of that I get worried I am ineffective. I don't want praise for the sake of praise.

    The thing is, I am quite pushy/demanding/controling, and will almost always seek out a leadership position if I get heavily involved with something. My dedication/passion is inexoribly linked to the amount of effort I put into something. As such, the more time I put in, the more I care and the more involved I will want to be. I really, really want things to be done right, and if I see them not being done correctly I will want to get right into and fix it. I can be immensely critical/cruel if people are incompetent and will go to lengths to overthrow them. That said, I am very friendly, and quite understanding at the same time, and am never cruel for the sake of cruel. Choleric for this just sounds out and out mean, wanting control because it's control. Not for any sort of end goal, reason, or for the betterment of something. I also fully recognize that some people are at their best when not controlled. I don't want to let people do their thing, and that has a slow persistent leak, but I let them do it. It's simply unfair to control everything that someone does even if they're wrong. It drives me nuts, but I leave it be for the sake of the greater good. I'm very goal/future oriented.

    Another way to put it, is I want to impart a significant amount of control over people, but in practice only impart moderate. It goes up and down though, and the majority of the time it's quite covert and very tactful. That said, my friends would all likely say I am immensely controlling. Wouldn't be surprised if people on the forum said that too. Also, I will almost always relent if someone is objectively right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    As an NF, I would expect your Control to be at least in the Phlegmatic range (rather than pure C or M, which would be, respectively, an NT or SJ), so you should check those out too, and maye also the pure Phlegmatic, if you didn't really read it already.
    I would expect a C/M to be an ESTJ, and a C/PM or C/PC to be either that or an ENTJ, and I notice you have both high Fe and Te (they are "left brain alternatives", and so can both come out "strong"), but as function preference is not really about relative "strength" (as measured by an imperfect test that likely doesn't take into consideration why or in what contexts a given function comes out so "strong") I wonder if it's possible for Te to be the dominant.
    I really don't relate to phlemegic traits all that much. I kinda do, but I also kinda don't. You would not be the first person to float the idea that I am a Te dom. It's kinda common, actually. On the surface I do appear to be ESTJ, but I am not. @EJCC has met me in person and completely confirm this. A lot of it comes down to I am a strong 1w2, and it effects how I "use" my Fe and present it to the world. It's absolutely Fe though. On the surface I relate to Te quite well, and aspire towards it's goals, but I don't actually use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Affection is not just about "romantic" relationships, but just "deep relationships" (including any close family) in general, and how open or closed one is in them (and includes how much physical affection one likes to give or receive).
    I'm close with people, but I can't categorize it right . I fit bits and pieces of most of them. I also want and get very different things from everyone that I am close to, but permanently feel stifiled, and like I have an itch I can't find to scratch.

    (I have aspergers, and there are some aspects of human behavior/relations that leave me flummoxed even with the most concerted effort).
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  10. #150
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    I would think Phlegmatic in Control would be NF, and ESFP and ENFP will be very similar on the surface. The Phlegmatic in Control probably won't be very pragmatic (they have a low energy reserve, and take the path of least resistance. As you can see there, they're more "democratic" than "autocratic"). Though really, Phlegmatic is inbetween, and won't be totally reserved either, but overall, would probably be more "cooperative".

    SP is likely Sanguine in Control. would be the purest Sanguine of the types.

    If you're Choleric Phlegmatic in Affection, you probably can't say you don't have a "directive" bone in your body, because Choleric is the epitome of directive, and very aggressive about it. Though the Phlegmatic will greatly temper it down.
    "Directive" is really Interaction Style, and would likely correspond to Inclusion more, but "Affection" is like a deeper level of social interaction. (Inclusion is surface; "who's in or who's out", and Affection is how closed or open you are with those who are "in"). But a Choleric in Affection will still have some amount of directive behavior, even if Inclusion is is opposite. (Thus it can explain some behavior that might not fit the regular Interaction Style).

    So CP will be inbetween in that dimension.
    So this "goal" orientation will be in your deep relationships only (and again, be very moderate at that), while your surface relationships will be more purely "people"-oriented. You'll want to socialize with a lot of people, but once home or whatever, you'll only need affection and closeness under a moderate criteria.
    However, Affection is the deepest level of personality, so that's why Choleric would ultimately seem more "essential".
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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